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James Rorar

32 Cal.
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Was out at the range working up shot loads for turkey. Used the four over-shot cards over the powder then shot with single over-shot card and saw a huge improvement in my pattern. Even had my friend with screw-in choke New Englander doing the same and he improved an already impressive pattern. Thanks to whom ever suggested this type of load. I don,t think the turkeys will be as thankful as I am.
James
 
Jim I found an article on another site and was impressed also. I didn't post it here though, sorry. I can post it here if you like. It t worked well for me but I adjusted the info a little.
Good shooting.
MC.
 
Well, I'm glad it worked for you. Did you poke holes at 12 o'clock in the cards, and arrange them when loading at 3,6,9,12 o'clock? I've found that it relieves pressure when loading, and helps deflect the card a few feet from the muzzle on discharge. I usually load two overshot cards on top of the shot, just to anchor the shot coloumn in place. I do a lot of pheasant hunting and will ofen walk several miles in rough country before getting a shot. I want to be absolutely certain that the shgot column hasn't crept foward, and two card seem to gaurantee that.

I've been loading only overshot cards for years and am always gratified by the results. At least a dozen years ago I mentioned this technique to Kit Ravenshear, and he acted as though it was a well known if seldom used secret to shotgunning success.

It is one of those things that once discovered seems so obvious you wonder why you ever loaded any other way. The whole concept of overpowder, and cushion wads seems so counter productive when common sense and practical results demonstrate the benefits of simply using overshot cards. I suppose it's something we can blame on the so called experts that outlined blackpowder shotgun loading procedure as requiring overpowder and cushion wads for best pattern density.

A properly loaded muzzleloading shotgun is virtually the ballistic twin of modern breechloading guns. In fact a cylinder bore muzzleloader will shoot more like an improved cylinder breechloader. I suppose there are more muzzleloading rifleman out there than shotgunners, but the muzzleloading shotgun is under far less of a handicap than the muzzleloading rifleman is. Shot for shot, modern rifles are more accuratethan muzzleloaders and have much greater lethal range. A modern shotgun however doesn't perform appreciably better than a muzzleloader, it just loads easier and faster.

Well, I'm glad you got such good results using only overshot cards. Share the information with your friends, and for any skeptics you encounter, show them the results.The easiest way for anyone to improve there pattern density is to use overshot cards exclusively.
 
Hey guys here is the article I found but I modified it a little for me.
[url] http://www.caywoodguns.com/working_up_turkey_loads_for_opti.htm[/url]

I mixed the muffin mix ahead of time and added the sot as I wanted 1 1/2 time for volume. Know what I mean? Instead of the same for shot and powder.

Anyway thanks for the tips, especially with the holes in the card. I'll do that next.


MC.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
MC ~ I read the article you posted and saw something that I wanted to comment on. The author alludes to the heavier wad "overtaking" the lighter pellets after the column leaves the barrel. Everytime I hear this, I have to shake my head. :shake:

All the components of the shot column leave the barrel at the same speed. To suggest that one of those components actually speeds up and overtakes another component threatens the very foundations of science. I don't know who started this theory, but I hear it a lot.

It sounds as though you have found a system that works and that's all that counts. Rick
 
I'm no ballistic expert, but I saw the evidence of heavier cushion and overpowder wads disrupting the shot column 30 years ago. Accepting all components leave the barrel at the same speed, the lighter pellets will slow more rapidly than the heavier wads, and those heavier wads will overtake the more rapidly decellerating pellets
and blow the pattern. Perhaps the heavier wads aren't travelling faster, but the pellets are moving slower after they leave the muzzle. It's what happens after the shot leaves the barrel and occurs 20-40 yards down range that concerns me. Try it yourself and see if you don't get better results.
 
If the wad is heavier, it will have more inertia than the lighter shot and so will decelerate more slowly. It's not that the heavier wad speeds up after it leaves the muzzle, but rather that it doesn't slow down as fast as the shot and so overtakes the shot.

Wind resistance effects are another matter.

Don
 
I dont know the physics of the reason it gets better patterns with the lighter over-shot cards. But in my cases the difference in the pattern was huge. I would suggest that if your bp shotgun has a wide pattern try the over-shot card only method. I did not punch holes in the cards just loaded them slow. I will try the holes next time out.
 
Punch the holes at 12 o'clock, but when loading arrange them at 12,3,6 and 9 o'clock. This will prevent you from stacking the holes on top of each other, and will give better insulation against explosive gas. Mink oil is by far the lightest lube I've used, and need only be applied to the out edges of the cards. Stack the performated cards together like a coin roll, and simply apply the lube to the outer edges of the cards.

If you're just loading for turkey, and won't be shooting more than once you can dispense with the lube entirely. If you want to shoot a round of trap though, you'll need some type of lube. It's a good idea not to saturate the cards with lubricant, as the card will lose rigidity, clump together, become heavier, and basically defeat the whole purpose of using cards only.
 
I am new at this aand never questioned the prelubed shot wads, but now that I am using the over-shot cards only, what is the purpose of the lube?
James
 
I'm not a turkey hunter, but I understand it's a single shot affair, thus you don't need to lubricate the cards as you will be ramming them down a vlean barrel.Lube is important if you plan on shooting repeatedly. By lubing the outside diamter of the card, you can continue loading after the bore becomes fouled. I don't wipe between shots when using a fowler, and lubricated cards make reloading easier. Because they fit the bore so tightly, they tend to have a cleaning effect on the bore, and I can shoot several times, before I feel the need to brush or wipe the barrel.

Mink oil is very light and won't "weigh down" the card. I know some folks that sprinkle vegetable oil over their wads, and the result is a greasy mess, with wads adhering to one another, and cards that bend.
 
i also questioned the theory, based on the fact that although heavier, the wad is wider, and flat ensuring more wind resistance. i have not tried the over card theory yet, and definitely plan to as i believe you all about the effectiveness, i just don't understand how projectiles made to fly can be overtaken (or slow down more) than a fat, flat wad. i would be very interested to see some of the slow motion video that i have on this site regarding this matter. if they were able to capture a ball and patch, i think it would be very interesting to see if the coloumn is really chased down by the wad. good info, thanks for posting all of it. :applause:
 
I would be real interested in seeing some slow motion photography of a shot load using the standard over powder, fiber cushion wad, shot, and over shot wad and compare it to one using just the overshot cards.
 
Whether the cause is as simple as the oft-stated theory, I've also seen the effect. I had sufficiently frequent donut patterns using Crisco-lubed 1/2" cushion wads that stopped occurring when I went to using half a cushion (1/4"). This is over 3 or 4 overshot cards or home-punched cereal box cards, or 4 or 5 milk-carton ones. I went to the multiple o/s cards after also suspecting that the 1/8" o/p cards of affecting patterns sometimes, but I haven't proved that conclusively.

Unfortunately, my 16ga has rough bores and I need a fair amount of lube or loading becomes an ulcerated hemmoroid very quickly. I also need more than 2 cards to seal and I find some sort of shot protector helps the pattern and reduces bore leading. If one plays with paper or card shot protectors and examines the fired ones, burn streaks make it very apparent when powder gasses get past the wads.

Then one day I found out that a 1/4" Crisco-soaked fiber wad became a problem below freezing, despite seeing them shredded in the snow in front of my firing position. That load-testing exercise was a wipe-out but I found that lightly oiled boot-felt cushions cured the problem. Edge-lubing the 1/4" fiber cushion seems to work but I haven't made time to pattern them seriously in cold weather yet. I've tried using just cards and spraying some moose-milk type lube to replace V.M. Starr's spit-lube, and it works but ease of loading hasn't been as consistent as with a lubed cushion, and I suspect it weakens the overshot card, so I may go to using 2 cards in my second barrel when i do this.

Joel
 
YOu forget that the shot pellets are breaking a " trail " through the air in front of that big, flat, heavy wad. That is why the pellets that have rubbed flats on their sides while traveling down the barrel slow down more rapidly, and begin to break to the outside of the main column of shot. YOu can see these pellets with their flat sides if you shoot through paper at 10 feet, then 15, 20, 25, and 30. At each distance more and more pellets are breaking out of the pattern. At ten yards, the pattern should be no larger than a large softball, but you will often find pellets hitting outside even this large pattern. If you look closely, you may see pellets that went through the paper with a flat on the side, instead of in front or in back. You will get a nice arc on the paper around a portion of the hole the pellet made, and then a " flat " on one side of the hole. That tells you what is happening with your unprotected shot loads.

As to the Overpowder or cushion wads following the shot, there is no doubt that it does, as you often will see large holes through paper at 25 yds. Again, if you shoot through paper at shorter ranges, as described above, you see what the wads are doing, in relation to the hole made by the load of shot. As the lead pellets slow in that first 20 yards, the wads " catch up"< mostly because for half that distance the wads are riding behind the shot in a vacuum created by the shot. As the shot opens up, however, the vacuum disappears, and air now begins to also slow the wads. However, the damage is already done. As soon as that shot slows enough to strike the wads trailing behind, the shot begins to split away from the POA, with the wads being the base of a shallow cone of shot that remains on line. The shot in that shallow cone is what is left to fill the center of your pattern, and even that begins to travel sideways because of the interference with the aerodynamics of each pellet by the proximity of the wad. Remember, as that wad slows, it is also pushing air in front of it, and if the shot is close to that wad, it will be receiving and reacting to air resistence not only on its front, but on its rear. Something has to give. Its usually that pellet, and it gives by getting out of the way, ie. going sideways.

I hope that helps you understand why heavy wads tend to blow patterns of shot, even though the shot load is much heavier, and perhaps the wad only weighs a little bit more than an individual pellet. The wad at first flies fast because it takes advantage of the vacuum created in front of it by the pellets. As that load of shot begins to dispurse, and slow, the vacuum disappears, and not the wad is pushing air into the back of the shot. The wad itself does not have to mechanically hit a pellet to make it move out of the line of fire. Air will do that quite nicely, just like when you blow out a candle.
 
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