yet another ballistics topic...cant

[George]

Don't disagree that it rotates around the line of sight. But unless your rifle can throw a curve it will be a different point of impact downrange.

We agree there. There certainly will be a difference in the point of impact, more or less, depending on the range and the degree of cant.

Heck, I see guys shooting their pistols held sideways all the time so I guess it works in the field.

Good suggestion, let's do that.

A look at the basics, using my smooth rifle, .600" ball, MV 1475 fps. Calculation shows that if I sight it in at 100 yards there will be 12.9 inches of true drop between muzzle and target, let's call it 13 inches.

If I point the bore at the X, the ball will fall 13" before it gets to 100 yards, and so will hit 13 inches low. So, I raise the barrel so it aims exactly 13 inches above the X, and now the ball drops exactly into the X. OK? Line of sight is pointed directly at the X, of course.

I find that it makes these problem easier for me to understand if I use the extremes, in this case near maximum cant. Let's turn the rifle 90° onto its left side, like those pistol shooters. Now when we shoot, we also rotate our head and line the sights up in the usual way, pointed right at the X. Now the line of bore is no longer pointed at a spot 13 inches directly above the X, but at a point 13 inches to the left of and perfectly level with the X. When we shoot, the ball goes where the barrel is pointed, 13 inches left. But, we originally set everything up that way to cancel out the drop. That no longer happens, there is no compensation for drop, so the full 13 inches takes place. The ball will now hit 13 inches left and 13 inches low.

The same happens if we tilt 90° to the right.

There is obviously much less effect if you only cant a little bit. Since drop comes into play in generating the error, the greater drop caused by longer ranges and slower balls compounds the problem.

Spence

 

[Stumpkiller]

I was thinking about canting my gun when shooting after it had already been correctly sighted in, and on a calm day. Easier for me to keep all the ducks in a row when working on such problems if I eliminate all extraneous elements, concentrate on the basics.

That way, shooting conditions, type of sight, type of rifle, etc., etc., don't clutter my old brain.

For instance, the basic problem involves the line of sight, but not the method you used to establish it. Adjustable, fixed, iron, aperture, scope, it doesn't matter, they are only there to establish the line of sight, don't enter into the equation after that, as far as I can see. The best modern rifle built, with the best scope, will have the same problems when shot canted as my original smooth rifle with only a front bead, because its the basic elements of the flight of bullets we are thinking of. Line of bore, line of sight, velocity, drop and the compensation for it, drag, etc., those are the things you have to use to solve such problems, IMHO.

Spence

Are you the same Spence10 that started this thread? :haha:

Discussing weird ballistics questions is a good thing, IMHO, because it makes us think about how our guns work. It forces us to consider the basics which we normally take for granted, or never really understood. There is a lot more to hitting a target than point and shoot.

When a grouse flushes I'm focusing only on the grouse. Two seconds of thought is a second longer than the opportunity the grouse will offer. With a m/l rifle I have taken as long as 20 minutes to get everything just so for a long shot on a bedded buck. That one (120 yards with a .54) remains my longest m/l kill. There was not much cover between us and I moved like molasses to get turned around and find a solid rest over a fallen log. Normally I hunt where I can't see beyond 40 yards through the cover so cant dont hold me up much.

 

[George]

Like so much in life, it depends.

To the board:

I'm was trying to start a conversation, mostly theoretical, about the basic principles involved in the problems caused by cant. Whether any person's situation is such that cant is or is not a problem is of no relevance to the question. We each can and will work that out on our own.

Am I the only one who finds such questions interesting? Is 'out of sight, out of mind' your answer for everything not 100% practical?

What a boring world you live in.

Have another beer and forget it, sorry I started the topic.

Spence

 

[coloradoclyde]

You can't quit now......you promised me a quiz... :haha:

 

[Artificer]

Heck, I see guys shooting their pistols held sideways all the time so I guess it works in the field.

Good suggestion, let's do that.


Spence

Turning a pistol 90 degree's is what is or was normally known as the "Israeli Grip" as it was first taught by the Israeli Defense Force for SHORT range, very fast shooting. It really is not for accurate shooting.

SOME Bullseye Pistol shooters using a one hand hold, will cant the pistol about 45 degrees, because it twists the arm muscles and locks them up a bit tighter. However, they HAVE to do a lot of practice adjusting changing clicks on their sights and recording it, because the X Ring on their targets is only 1" in diameter. Many matches are won or lost by only one "X."

But I don't think you are canting your gun near as far as 45 degrees?

Have you tried shooting at 100 yards to see how much a cant will affect the strike of your bullets? I can't speak for others, but I would be interested in finding out the results from such a test.

Gus

 

[M. De Land]

I use spirit levels in two of my mid range black powder cartridge rifles.
We shoot to 600 yards and believe me, cant angle will kill you at those distances along with spin drift.

 

[Stumpkiller]

Am I the only one who finds such questions interesting? Is 'out of sight, out of mind' your answer for everything not 100% practical?

What a boring world you live in.

Heck no. I tried to give you a cohesive and comprehensive answer as I understand the effect and got all jumped on for being a fuss-budget; or just wrong.

The key to shooting accuracy is consistency. Control as much as you can during any loading and shooting because there is so much you cannot. Or, just don't worry about it and shoot. It's all good as long as there's silver on the shelf or meat in the freezer.

 

[Artificer]

I would be very interested to see what the results of using a cant would be at 50 and 100 yards, after the gun was sighted level.

Gus

 

[Stumpkiller]

If you Google "Effects of Rifle Cant" there are videos and a good description by Terry Hart - not linked here because they are centerfire. But the concept is the same. While we don't have the 10 foot off at 1,000 yard problem, one description mentions 1" at 100 yards.

With my current eyesight and iron sights I'm 8" at 100 yards . . . and I don't need those 8" to be anywhere but centered due to preventable problems. I can create enough other problems all on my own.

 

[Artificer]

I hope no one thinks I am trying to be critical with the following. Sometimes things can be read and appear that way, when there was/is no intent to do so.

I am well aware of problems with CF rifles and the problems caused by canting, at 200 through 1,000 yards, from my years as a Team Armorer.

I am also aware of the problems a cant causes with muzzle loaders when shooting at 200 to 500 yards, again from experience as a Muzzle Loading Team Armorer. M.D. also mentioned that, above. However, those were normally Whitworth or Pickett style projectiles.

What I would like to see is how much a cant affects a much slower and less aerodynamic projectile (round ball), that many forum members use, at 50 and 100 yards. The latter being about the maximum distance most forum members shoot muzzle loaders. I don't think it would make a huge difference on a deer size target, but I could be mistaken because I have never done such a test. I don't believe my eyes are good enough any more to do such a test, myself, and get accurate results.

Also, this gets to the heart of the question Spence asked about what would be the effect of a cant after the gun is already sighted in level. The one sure way to find out is to shoot the gun at a cant at 50 and 100 yards.

Gus

 

[LaBonte]

Turning a pistol 90 degree's is what is or was normally known as the "Israeli Grip" as it was first taught by the Israeli Defense Force for SHORT range, very fast shooting. It really is not for accurate shooting.

And that came about because the Israeli army (IDF)at least at that time did not allow cocked and locked carry of their single action pistols, both M1911s and Hi-Powers. Instead they carried the guns cocked, unlocked, but without a round in the chamber. So when drawing their pistol they chambered a round (being already cocked eased the energy needed to pull back the slide speeding the operation) and canted the pistol in order to get the best grip on the slide. As noted this method was only used for close range. It sounds clumsy but with regular practice can be almost as fast as cocked and locked.
IIRC, gun writer Massad Ayoob wrote an article some time back about the effects of firing the gun at a 90° as seen in so many movies today, especially gangsta films.

 

[BrownBear]

Am I the only one who finds such questions interesting? Is 'out of sight, out of mind' your answer for everything not 100% practical?

I think the distinction for me is that I actually go out and try the weird stuff, rather than grabbing my butt with both hands and making a wild arsed guess. In the case of cant, it is an easy thing to test, long as a guy has his gun sitting there on a bench rest.

But actual shooting isn't near so much fun as the excuses folks use for typing rather than shooting! :rotf:

 

[coloradoclyde]

I hope no one thinks I am trying to be critical with the following. Sometimes things can be read and appear that way, when there was/is no intent to do so.

Welcome to the club .....it happens to me all the time. :haha:

On that note:....The affects of a cant increase with the curve of trajectory....
The flatter a gun shoots or the shorter the distance, the less affect...

 

[Dewey]

I just cant get into this topic - unless you are capable of shooting competitively at Friendship, I seriously doubt that it is of any use.

Definitely not for me, my failing eyesight, and my smoothbore !!!

But don't mind me ... carry on !!! op:

 

[Semisane]

..... We shoot to 600 yards and believe me, cant angle will kill you at those distances along with spin drift.

Aw M.D. You're killing me here. I always thought spin drift was the spray blown from cresting waves during a gale. :wink:

 

[smo]

Spin drift is that kinda like a curve ball :grin:

 

[nkbj]

Cant see much difference in shooting except for the spin drifts that dont use enough powder.
:idunno: