Zoli Harpers Ferry musket loading help.

[TFoley]

A poster on a forum over here has the above-noted Model of 1803 flintlock musket, and is trying to shoot it without patching, using a double wadding system that Mike Beliveau notes on his website although he is shooting a Charleville musket.

He is getting appalling levels of accuracy, to say the least, with the POI ranging all over a two foot target at fifty yards.

Right now he was trying out .575 ball, but finding that they don't go down the clean dry barrel, let alone load.

Any and all tints and hips would be appreciated, although of course, finding a smaller diameter ball must be his priority right now - not easy here in UK, where PRB shooting is pretty uncommon.

TIA

tac

 

[Flash Pan Dan]

I started using Mike Beliveau's load in my 28 gauge trade gun and it works wonderfully. I pour down the powder then a ball of tow, then the ball, and finally the another ball of tow. I am shooting this combo into 1 1/2 inch to two inch groups at fifty yards. There are a couple of things that make this combo work. One, my bore at the muzzle is .540 and I am using a .535 ball and two you have to use a pretty stout load of powder, in my case, 85 grains of 3Fg at least. Anything less and I get 12 inch groups. I have shot upto 95 grains of 3Fg with the same success. I hope that helps.

 

[nwtradegun]

it is not a smoothbore it is rifled and needs patched round balls.

 

[Britsmoothy]

Is the barrel bearing on the lock plate or other part in any way?
That will screw things up!

B.

 

[simonbeans]

it is not a smoothbore it is rifled and needs patched round balls.

Ditto :applause:

 

[TFoley]

Well, HIS musket is a smooth-bore musket. He says. :surrender:

tac

 

[TFoley]

Many thanks for that, Dan. Bill Curtis' advise was to try 100gr - obviously that is a tad too much.

Best

tac

 

[TFoley]

THIS is what he has -

"22G Black Powder Zoli Harpers Ferry 1803 flintlock reproduction with 35 inch hexagonal barrel fitted with rifle type sights, 14 inch stock with patch pocket, weighing 8lbs 11oz sidelock action complete with flint and in excellent little used condition. This really is a lovely shotgun and is ready for use, just add Black powder, wadding and shot. Please ring 07860 720386 anytime 8am-8pm Mon to Sun inclusive. Stock number 1900.
Read more at http://www.gunstar.co.uk/zoli-antonio-co-harpers-ferry-1803-bp-repro-22g-shotgun/Shotguns/666309#hDx3iTm3dejqoYwO.99"

Shotgun versions - that is to say, smoothbore versions of otherwise rifled arms, are common here in UK because of the law. A rifled arm needs club membership and a firearms certificate. A smoothbore needs only a shotgun certificate.

tac

 

[Grumpa]

If it is a smoothbore, it has been altered. Zoli used the same barrels they used in their Civil War repros, just changing the outside shape. So it has shallow rifling intended for Minie balls, but it shoots well enough with patched roundballs.

I loaded mine with two 30-06 casings (neck attached) full of FFg ( about 130 grains) with no problems.

If it has been altered to smoothbore...I can't help him. :idunno:

 

[Flash Pan Dan]

Tac,

100 grains may not be too much. Mike Beliveau uses 110 grains in his 20 gauge (62 caliber.) 85 grains is stout load my 54. So depending on the caliber of your smoothbore it may take 100 grains or more for it to work. Don’t be shy about experimenting with a heavier load. The other part is to measure the bore and get the right size ball for it.

 

[smoothshooter]

It may be a smoothbore version intended for the European market where rifled guns are frowned upon, even muzzleloaders by the authorities.

 

[Zonie]

As tac mentioned, the laws in the UK and several other countries in Europe allow owning smoothbore guns without a lot of licensing.

Because of this, several of the gunmaking companies in Italy produce their normally rifled barrels without rifling.

The companies that import these companies guns into the US don't bother importing the smoothbore versions because they wouldn't sell well here.

I note in the link tac provided that this is supposed to be a 22 guage.
That should make the bore size about .596 inches in diameter.

Of course, this is putting a lot of faith in the ad's description of the bore size.

Anyway, if the bore is .596 I would think the .575 ball, unpatched would fall down the bore from it's own weight and shoot poorly.

With a .010 thick patch, the .575" ball should be just about right for a smoothbore and shoot fairly accurately.

At this stage in the game I think the first thing to do is to have the bore size accurately measured. At least this would tell us what sort of critter we're dealing with.

 

[trent/OH]

Tac,

100 grains may not be too much. Mike Beliveau uses 110 grains in his 20 gauge (62 caliber.) 85 grains is stout load my 54. So depending on the caliber of your smoothbore it may take 100 grains or more for it to work. Don’t be shy about experimenting with a heavier load. The other part is to measure the bore and get the right size ball for it.

My Bess works better with a stout load of powder. If that ball is lumbering along, it goes where it pleases. If it is scooting along it tends to go where I send it. Now if I could just get myself to send it consistently.

 

[Britsmoothy]

Many thanks for that, Dan. Bill Curtis' advise was to try 100gr - obviously that is a tad too much.

Best

tac

How is 100grn obviously to much?
Are you suggesting or assuming something?

B :hatsoff:

 

[Grenadier1758]

As stated in the original post, a 0.575 ball can't be loaded. Therefore I assume the bore is less than 0.575. What was the powder charge? What size ball was being used that resulted in the appalling accuracy?

The first order of business is to measure the bore at the muzzle. Then check for choke. Does the bore open up below the muzzle? Are there any irregularities in the bore?

Get a ball about 0.005" smaller than the bore diameter. Use the proper wad and lube. You may need a fairly stout load of black powder for accuracy.

 

[TFoley]

He was using a 90gr load. I have passed all these comments on to him.

Thanks to all.

tac

 

[TFoley]

It may be a smoothbore version intended for the European market where rifled guns are frowned upon, even muzzleloaders by the authorities.

On the contrary, Sir. With the exception [of course] of the UK, single-shot muzzle-loading firearms are, in general, exempt from ANY form of licensing. Providing that you are over 18, and have a place to shoot it, you can walk into the gun-store and walk out again with it over your shoulder.

The UK, of course, is different, but the PITA of joining a gun club where they actually DO BP, waiting for your six-month probie time to be up so you can apply for a firearms certificate for a rifled arm and so on, is obviated by having a shotgun license on which you can have any number of smoothbores you want. This is how the re-enactors of the WoNa get around the law. All you have to be to be a shotgun owner is to be law-abiding and of good character - yu cannot be refused a license - it is up to the licensing authorities, ie, the police, to prove that you are not a fit person. That's why there are around four million shotguns here.

tac

 

[Britsmoothy]

What makes even more stupid in the UK is the very fact that there is no law prohibiting the use of a ML rifle to hunt game or vermin!

However on the appropriate licence which states some conditions of use no police authority will grant a rifle for hunting! An invisible wall exists where that one is concerned!
However smokeless nonsense is straight forward :youcrazy:

 

[TFoley]

What makes even more stupid in the UK is the very fact that there is no law prohibiting the use of a ML rifle to hunt game or vermin!

However on the appropriate licence which states some conditions of use no police authority will grant a rifle for hunting! An invisible wall exists where that one is concerned!
However smokeless nonsense is straight forward :youcrazy:

There is ONE almost insurmountable problem here in UK with regard using any muzzleloader for live game shooting of the deer/feral goat variety and that is making the required muzzle energy, or, in Scotland, the complete impossibility of meeting the combination of muzzle velocity AND muzzle energy.

Gamebird shooting is perfectly feasible with a muzzleloader, but shooting deer here in UK with a single-shot, slow to reload BP m/l is unheard of - at least I'VE never heard of it done.

tac

 

[Britsmoothy]

ME can be met in Englandand Wales.

The powers that be won't allow it for small game or vermin either, for which there is no law on the statute books against it! :youcrazy: