Zouave runs at last

[bigted]

I have been off n on tryin to get my CCI Zouave to shoot with its oversized bore. today I wrapped some Minnie's in paper to bring em up to .580 and some fatter Lee boolits with the hollow base that papered up to .582. I tried them but they just went sideways at the 25 yard mark every time ... load was first 50 grains KIK 2Fg then 60 grains ... followed by 80 grains and all with the very same results ... and they didn't group rather patterned ... so aggravating.

putting aside I ran the thought further up the flagpole to have the barrel [nice n fat] reamed out to .615 for a smooth 20 gauge percussion ... sounds like a hoot for a gun to me.

after shooting the 54 cal for a hour n a half I walked back and picked up the Zouave again and study's the rifle for the 20 gauge rebore and thought it would work just fine ... then I remembered I had taken a box of .570 round balls and put them in the shooting box so I figured what the heck ... ill spit a few of them out to just see what they will do.

loading up an 80 grain KIK 2Fg powder load ... I stuffed a round ball in the muzzle under a piece of the .018 cloth patch lubed copiously with bore butter. after wiping the greese off my hands I rammed home on the powder the patched round ball.

what a nice feeling to see a nice round hole appear in the target.

reloading I sat there and contemplated how to proceed and decided to just keep the same point of aim and as I squeezed off the round ... you coulda knocked me over as I observed another hole cut into the first nice round hole.

I have to say that as rough and wavey as this barrel is I wasn't expecting any real accuracy with it. but as I loaded the round balls into the muzzle over the 80 grain powder charge it would keep belting them into a 1.5 inch group with ease ... the ball's in their lubed cloth will thumb seat into the muzzle so they are super easy to load and fast to boot.

all in all I had a super good labor day at the range with great success with both the 54 Renegade and this ol Zouave. glad to be able to report success with both rifles and look forward to getting back to the range to see if I can repeat my success and further decide whether or not I want to make a smoothie outta the Zouave.

easy cleanup with both the KIK and GOEX's OL E powders ... way better then any powder I have used in the past.

 

[Zonie]

Ya gotta love it when things all come together and work like they should. :thumbsup:

 

[bigted]

yes sir ... I were bout to throw in the towel as I have not been able to get this barrel to behave ... but I may have stumbled onto its secret. it just prints a good 8 to 10 inch above the point of aim at the 25 yards.

 

[Grumpa]

See where it prints at 50...75...100 yards.

 

[MSW]

congrats! glad to hear thing worked out well. :grin:

make [more] good smoke!

 

[bigted]

yes before I file, grind, weld, past, color, general mess things up I plan to shoot it more and my plan was to try the 100 yds target just to see where it would print ... im going to up the powder charge as well to see if that would bring the impact down to a reasonable place.

thanks for all the encouragement I really like it when a rifle begins to show signs of life.

 

[bigted]

I think I found why my '63' will not shoot with the Minnie's. in reading here and other places I have repeatedly read to never cast the minnie with anything harder then pure lead.

I do not remember when I cast my Minnie's but I can certainly say that they are NOT pure lead. they are so hard I can not make a mark in them with my fingernail.

now I had cast some hollow based 50 cal boolits to try in the different 50's I have but I must have cast the 58 Minnie's out of regular 20 to 1 mix as I can groove the 50's with my fingernail and yet not even scratch the others.

could this make them tumble so badly even at the short 25 yard range?

I know the bore is kinda "lumpy" ... meaning that as I slide a tight patch down the bore it acts like it is going over waves kinda as it goes down the barrel. not so much that I can see em clearly but I can kinda see the irregularity's in the bore. this is why I am so tickled with the PRB's doing so well in it.

guess I will need to cast a few in my dwindling supply of pure lead and shoot em to see how they work.

 

[bigted]

also id like to ask about the smooth bore rifle in this configuration [being a Zouave] ... is it a thing that was done or were the smoothies just in flintlock?

id like to remain sorta historically correct after a fashion ... so maybe someone could tell me the straight skinny of the history of a military or civilian smooth bore in 20 gauge or even other calibers/bore's.

thanks.

 

[Zonie]

Just my opinion but if the Minie' is not cast out of pure lead, the base of it will not expand and engage the rifling grooves.

Without engaging the grooves, the Minie' will not spin when it's fired so it becomes very unstable after leaving the muzzle.
Yes, in this unstable condition the slug can easily "keyhole" at 25 yards.

All military muskets were smoothbores.

Even the first military sidelock that officially used percussion caps, the Model 1842 Musket, was a smoothbore in .69 caliber however, this was the last Military smooth bore used by the US.

Basically, any military arm that is called a "Musket" is a smoothbore designed to shoot a unpatched ball.
.69, slightly larger than a 20 guage was the favored caliber.

The popularity of the musket was a carryover from earlier times when shooting massive volleys of lead at the enemy with a rapid loading gun was considered the best way to beat them.
The massive volumes of lead were followed by bayonet charges.


That is not to say there weren't Military rifles.
As early as 1792 there were contracts for a very limited supply of rifled flintlocks, most of which were made by private gunsmiths in .50 caliber.

Then, there was the Harpers Ferry Model 1803 flintlock rifle, a halfstock made in .54 caliber.

 

[bigted]

thanks Jim, I will cast some Minnie's out of my dwindling supply of pure lead and try em. guess I pulled a bone head on this one with the harder mix for my choice in casting media.

as for the smoothie ... if I can make this hummer shoot with Minnie's as good as it does the PRB's then I will definitely leave it as is. I am surprised at how much I enjoy shooting it even tho it weigh's a ton it seems. the full grip at the wrist along with the massive lock n such give a sense of stability that few rifles possess.

I have reworked the sear and given it a smoothing as well as installed a lighter bridle return spring so the trigger pull is somewhere in the 3 pound area and nice n crisp so that is a plus over the 90 pound yank { :idunno: kidding here} it took to release the hammer before.

 

[bpd303]

If you have been shooting hard cast minnie's, there is a real possibility your barrel is badly leaded from gas cutting. Try some Chore Boy wrapped around a loose fitting bore brush with lead removing solvent to see if the bore smooths out.

 

[bigted]

interesting ... I will tackle it to find out if I have lead in there ... what a grand thought ... if it will clean up then I know I will make it run on what it were spose to run on.

thanks for the suggestion.

 

[RedFeather]

As I understand it, the older Zoli Zouaves have something like a 1:72 twist and favor round ball. As to boring out @ 20 gauge, lots of surplus muskets were bored out and the stocks cut down, then sold to westward bound pioneers.

 

[Zonie]

IMO, all of the rifled muskets have very shallow rifling grooves.
These were needed for the Minie' bullets so they would effectively seal against the bore and grooves.

Those shallow grooves, even with their slow rate of twist, have problems grabbing the patch unless the ball/patch size is a tight fit.

 

[bigted]

Zoni {Jim} ... this was my understanding as well. it is the why of not shooting the PRB for so long but ... when I did use the PRB with a .022 or so patch [could thumb seat the patched ball with my thumb fairly easy] it shot so well with the 80 grain KIK load. this is why I posted in the first place was to get an understanding of why this rifle would shoot the PRB so well.

I have a couple pure lead casts today of a .575 inch Minnie and a fatter and shorter .578 inch hollow base that I want to get out and see if I can get round holes or still the keyholed bullets.

 

[Tim Maxey]

My Zoli has a bore right around .581, as measured from a lead slug. Yours may vary, but the measurement is essential to getting a good fitting Minie for great results!

 

[fraungie]

I have a Zoli too from Navy Arms. I bought it in the late 70's . I have tried 3 or 4 different Minie balls and none will shoot better than 12" groups at 25 yards and one mold key holed every time. Round balls shoot great I use 90 grs of 2 f with a .015 patch one hole group at 25 yards using a .570 ball. Others have had the same results. I think the rifling in the bore is too slow to stabelize the Minie. I gave up on the minie and shoot the round balls. Beside that minie takes a lot of lead out of my pot. The round balls use less lead and are just as much fun to shoot and a round ball .575 dia is nothing to sneeze at. It will drop any white tail in its tracks.

 

[fourdogs]

Hi from New Zealand,
I have a Zoli 'Zouave' copy of 1863 Rem. It now has a new walnut stock. The parts, inc lock, are very well made and twist is 1;66 (for RB only). Deadly accurate out to 100m+ with tight balls and 80gr ffg. A very powerful rifle indeed. The patch box is ideal for storing caps during a match. Unsure why the Italians built so many slow twist rifles...
Stuart.

 

[Wes/Tex]

Unsure why the Italians built so many slow twist rifles...
Stuart.

The M.1863 Zouaves and the M.1841 Mississippi, which uses the same barrel were originally both .58 caliber with 1-48" twist with the shallow but wide rifling designed for Minie type projectiles. In the late 80's or early 90's, the Mississippi was modified to a .54 caliber and 1-66" twist with more conventional rifling to placate teh huge number of those wanting a M.1841 in more 'traditional' garb. It now appears all were done the same by at least tow of the Italian makers...for reasons known only to themselves. If they intended to duplicate the original rifles, the Zouave and the Mississippis converted to .58 should have had Mine ball twist and rifling depth while the ball shooting Mississippi would have had a slower twist, deeper cut bore. Somebody got a bit carried away and there's been confusion ever since! :wink:

 

[bigted]

not sure about mine but I do know it has shallow grooves and three groove rifling to boot. it sure liked those .570 balls and now I have a .575 inch Lee mold on the way to try.

I like this rifle and the possible leading is a none issue as I scrubbed the livin heck outta it and no lead coming out but still wavey inside. heck who cares if it continues to shoot PRB's so well.