Thanks Rick!
I should probably investigate it now then, as with the line of arms already ahead of it … and uhhhhh … well, neither of us are getting any younger!
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Anyone shooting N. African snaphaunces?
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I should probably investigate it now then, as with the line of arms already ahead of it … and uhhhhh … well, neither of us are getting any younger!
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Price was right same style as one I restored that was got up from US Springfield barrel& Lock just restocked as percussion originally . But the lock & Brl got robbed & the stock thrown aside at F ship So I grabbed it got a trade lock EX Liege & bolster less Brl off 'Sarge' it being flint lock but evidently made to use up surplus Springfield arms So I made it Flint " Tower V R & ungainly crown." .& hunted with it me & my assistant Mr Bango Beagle esquire . .I thought it amusing that the Moroccan's considered the US stock ugly so restocked in their own local tastes . Is it of value ? No but its an interesting story I think . I can see you are embraceing the' New Way backwards (' I wouldnt know a Tradition's if it jumped up & bit me .But I like these ethnic sorts ) .
Regards Rudyard
Interesting to see th top of the barrel at the brech end. The stamp looks like a crown over V ?? O.D.
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Here is a photo of some barrel stamps on my shooter. The general style of the stamps is fairly common. The attempts are similar to Spanish and Italian guns from the period. But, unlike Europe and eventually North America, there was no way to officially trace these markings/stamps to any particular gun maker or shop. Even with the translation of words would not necessarily offer any assistance. There were no serial numbers per say. There is very little written documentation on how their guns were built. Only by later day study by collectors and students do we come up with some logical conclusions. And diaries from individuals visiting the Region during the period.
They simply did not write/record much of anything relating to these guns. Also, much of the locals could not read or write their own language, much less a foreign one.
For Morocco, we do know there were three basic styles of snaphaunce long guns, which can be traced to three different areas of the Country. The barrels were made by one smith, the locks by another smith, and final assembly and decoration by yet another.
Both the English and Dutch pattern of snaphaunce locks were utilized. It was said that a good lock smith could produce one lock per day. With a helper, he could produce three locks in two days. Much of the Ottoman Empire had adopted the use of the later style, and more reliable flintlocks. Both in miquelet and true French styles. So the continued use of the snaphaunce lock in Morocco for such a long period is still somewhat of a mystery. My only guess is that is what the local gunsmiths knew how to make, so that is what the locals asked for. The locks are large and would be easier to make by hand than smaller locks requiring smaller parts.
Rick
Awesome Rick!
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RAMROD: Here is a pic of the groove cut in the inside of the fore stock to accommodate the thin iron ramrods I mentioned earlier. This photo is from an Afghan jazail. But the Moroccan guns are done in the same manner.
Rick
Rick
As I mentioned in my new member introduction post, I recently purchased what was described as a “Turkish flintlock musket” made in the late 18th century. After searching for hours online, I think what I have is a North African Jezail camel gun with a snaphaunce lock. Please correct me if I’m wrong!
Aside from being filthy and missing 2 of the 3 screws that attach the lock to the stock, it appears to be complete. The lock looks identical to the picture rickystl posted at this beginning of this thread, albeit the lock in that picture is far cleaner and I assume functional. The ramrod is present, but I haven't been able to remove it and don't want to break it.
Other than knowing what they are, how they operate, etc, and a strong desire to build and/or recondition one, I’m new to muzzleloaders. Aside from removing the lock and using a dental pick and brass wire brush to get some very old gunk off, I’ve done nothing to it so far.
I really hope to get it back to firing condition. Though not a gunsmith, I’m a retired engineer and have developed many of the needed metalworking and woodworking skills involved. I'm "all-ears" as to suggestions of where to start, what to do or not do, and who I might contact in the Austin and central Texas area that has the experience I hope to develop.
-Bob
(FWLIW, I’m also building a Sonex-B E-AB airplane. See https://eaabuilderslog.org?s=N359BL)
Aside from being filthy and missing 2 of the 3 screws that attach the lock to the stock, it appears to be complete. The lock looks identical to the picture rickystl posted at this beginning of this thread, albeit the lock in that picture is far cleaner and I assume functional. The ramrod is present, but I haven't been able to remove it and don't want to break it.
Other than knowing what they are, how they operate, etc, and a strong desire to build and/or recondition one, I’m new to muzzleloaders. Aside from removing the lock and using a dental pick and brass wire brush to get some very old gunk off, I’ve done nothing to it so far.
I really hope to get it back to firing condition. Though not a gunsmith, I’m a retired engineer and have developed many of the needed metalworking and woodworking skills involved. I'm "all-ears" as to suggestions of where to start, what to do or not do, and who I might contact in the Austin and central Texas area that has the experience I hope to develop.
-Bob
(FWLIW, I’m also building a Sonex-B E-AB airplane. See https://eaabuilderslog.org?s=N359BL)
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That's really nice. How old is that one?
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Dear Tim I think youve got that right New follower of the weird & to me wonderful .
Regards Rudyard
Howdy Bob,
From what I've learned here on the forum, from resident N. African snaphaunce guru rickstl, yours appears to be a Moroccan Afedali. Jezails are Afghan guns, but the term "jezail" and "Camel gun" get applied by westerners to a lot of firearms from distant places across the Muslim world.
Nice piece! I look forward to seeing more about your work on it.
Best regards,
A.J.
Thanks for your reply A.J. re: correct terminology - Duly noted. I look forward to getting rickstl's take on it.
-Bob
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Well I've allways called them Kabyles and dealers in Morrocco tell you there ' Berber ' a Trible region. Ive seen one well down into central Algeria & its owner still used it, that was 1965 I gave him some flints as ever the' Muzzle loader' I carried some in case along with a horn of gunpowder I might need them . I was just hitch hiking through He had no English or French & I Scant Arabic but by the universal Mime we got on fine . Dateing them isnt simple as the styles changed little but there are regional variations .Yours Ide say was southern Wad Sous and that was just north west of where he was just a small Oasis community The driver must have been related and we stopped for some colourfull Weddng ?? or some such danceing women while the males shot off various decrepid muzzle loaders for a lark . Big feed of meat & cuss Cuss With Dates & endless rounds of mint tea sweetened by adding pieces of Sugar loaf brocken of with the bottom of thick glasses .A very memorable interlude . There were not the migrations from Sub Sahara lands like to day it was just the occasional two truck Convoys got checked at Adrar ere they where allowed to travel in two Camione convoy to Gao in Mali I just snuggled into the load we stopped to pray & camp at night They where a mix of local & two Tuaregs who started in Uniforms but donned the coulorful robes on nearing Mali Like butterflies I thought .At first we probably where unsure but after a few days & helping to dig the truck out of flour like sand we got on fine took us 5 days . However I digress hope you don't mind I was 20 & it was all so big and New .Now Ime past such wanderings . It sounds like you are capable and Ime happy to hear of your interest Regards Rudyard
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Sam squanch
69 Cal.
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Make sure there is not a load in the barrel. If so - DON’T shoot it out, could be anything down there. The breech plug should remove ok, just soak in some kroil. Or a 50/50 mix of transmission fluid and acetone if kroil is too expensive. Be very wary of the stock, it may be very fragile in spots. You will really need to get a muzzleloading gunsmith to check out the barrel, after years of abuse it may not be safe.
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Good advise of course if I use vinegar & brine to eat out rusty barrels The barrels I think where often imports a bore light be a useful guide ,Never seen Kroil. a rod will test for a load the fore wood is often two skinny pieces and delicate yours looks good never heard of one bursting but then not many shoot them .. Only one I know in NZ or anywhere shot one was me . but it had a Springfield barrel .Not every ones choice of a hunting rifle but I used it after pigs .
Regards Rudyard
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Hi Bob
Nice piece. It's from the same area of Morocco as my Post #4 above. The entire gun, including the lock appear to be complete. The two missing lock screws are easy to replace. Especially since you still have one original to duplicate. Do you have a photo of the Left side of the lock area ?
You mention that you might like to get this gun restored to shooting condition (?) If so, you have a good candidate for doing so. Your's, lacking lots of decoration will make it much easier to do any minor stock repairs, if needed. As a "wall hanger" it looks good as-is. If you want to make a shooter, I would be happy to offer some tips on dis-assembly and restoration. We can take it a step at a time, here on this open Forum, or by PM. Let me know what I can do to help. We will take it a step at a time. Not really as hard as you would first imagine.
Meantime: Getting the ramrod to move out of the stock. Keep in mind that the very slim fore stock on these guns can be brittle with age. That slim fore arm is one of the reasons for the multiple barrel bands we see on these guns. 1) Rest the gun in a gun cradle. If you don't have one, please buy one with rubber inserts. They're not expensive. 2) Get some twine. Tie three pieces, each between the barrel bands. Doesn't have to be tight. Just snug. 3) Get a pair of medium sized channel locks. Position the center hole of the channel locks (not the teeth) around the end of the ramrod. 4) Use a small ball peen or other 1-lb. hammer a lightly tap forward against the channel locks. The rod will usually slowly come out. If not, get back to me. LOL
Rick
Thanks for your replies all, especially Rick!
More pics and thoughts/comments:
My hope is to recondition, rebuild, and replace what's needed to get it back to operable, firing condition, as it was originally. I don't hunt, but do enjoy shooting at paper targets, and don't really anticipate firing it all that much anyway. But just like aircraft are meant to be flown, guns are meant to be fired, and I like to see them used for their intended purpose, not hanging on a wall to just be seen. Of course there are exceptions, but this isn't one of those.
Lock: Though still pretty dirty and gunked up, I have cocked the lock mechanism (quite a bit of force needed to do so) and the action works, with very little force needed to fire. The 1/2” long idler arm connecting pan cover to the lock base plate is secure, but has a very loose fit where it’s pinned to the cover. I’ve backed out most every screw a ~ 1/4 turn to verify they can be, but the mainspring screw and the 2 screws that attach frizzen spring will not budge. I’m planning to get some Kroil and hope that will do the trick. I’ll replace any or all the screws, assuming I can get the right ones.
Bands: From breech to muzzle, there is 1 very wide decorated band, 6 wide bands, and 1 narrow band, though a couple marks at the muzzle end of the stock indicate to me there was 1 more narrow band there originally. The 1 very wide decorated band and the 3rd wide band are split at the seam, were taped to keep them in place, and need replaced.
Stock: The butt stock is in reasonable shape, though there are knots, dings and surface defects I attribute to inferior wood used. The mid stock from the trigger, breech, and lock areas to the wide decorated band is not so good, IMO, with several cracks and general deterioration. The fore stock is just OK, and is separate from the aft; the 4th wide band covers a ~1/16” gap between the two pieces. The ramrod is very rigidly in place; I will try to extract it as described, but I suspect the bands and barrel will need to be removed to get it free. I’m thinking it might be best to just replace the entire stock.
Barrel: Other than external dirt and superficial rust inside the bore, the barrel seems to be in pretty good shape. I’ve run a 1/4” dowel the barrel and blown it out through the touch hole. There’s no charge there, just dirt and rust that a thorough bore cleaning should remove. I’m not sure what the caliber is, but the muzzle is flared externally and coned internally (I think that is the terminology).
-Bob
More pics and thoughts/comments:
My hope is to recondition, rebuild, and replace what's needed to get it back to operable, firing condition, as it was originally. I don't hunt, but do enjoy shooting at paper targets, and don't really anticipate firing it all that much anyway. But just like aircraft are meant to be flown, guns are meant to be fired, and I like to see them used for their intended purpose, not hanging on a wall to just be seen. Of course there are exceptions, but this isn't one of those.
Lock: Though still pretty dirty and gunked up, I have cocked the lock mechanism (quite a bit of force needed to do so) and the action works, with very little force needed to fire. The 1/2” long idler arm connecting pan cover to the lock base plate is secure, but has a very loose fit where it’s pinned to the cover. I’ve backed out most every screw a ~ 1/4 turn to verify they can be, but the mainspring screw and the 2 screws that attach frizzen spring will not budge. I’m planning to get some Kroil and hope that will do the trick. I’ll replace any or all the screws, assuming I can get the right ones.
Bands: From breech to muzzle, there is 1 very wide decorated band, 6 wide bands, and 1 narrow band, though a couple marks at the muzzle end of the stock indicate to me there was 1 more narrow band there originally. The 1 very wide decorated band and the 3rd wide band are split at the seam, were taped to keep them in place, and need replaced.
Stock: The butt stock is in reasonable shape, though there are knots, dings and surface defects I attribute to inferior wood used. The mid stock from the trigger, breech, and lock areas to the wide decorated band is not so good, IMO, with several cracks and general deterioration. The fore stock is just OK, and is separate from the aft; the 4th wide band covers a ~1/16” gap between the two pieces. The ramrod is very rigidly in place; I will try to extract it as described, but I suspect the bands and barrel will need to be removed to get it free. I’m thinking it might be best to just replace the entire stock.
Barrel: Other than external dirt and superficial rust inside the bore, the barrel seems to be in pretty good shape. I’ve run a 1/4” dowel the barrel and blown it out through the touch hole. There’s no charge there, just dirt and rust that a thorough bore cleaning should remove. I’m not sure what the caliber is, but the muzzle is flared externally and coned internally (I think that is the terminology).
-Bob
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Unlike Brer Rick I don't consider any antigue just to do up just to shoot its survived as a document Ide only restock if there was no stock. It may have had a rough trip but its its history .Ive got up numbers of guns useing old parts. Once all I had was a well worn Spanish belt hook its now part of a Catalonian Escopeta . generally its just a barrel & lock wedded to preserve the bits from floating bits in a box . the first post in Ottoman guns shew a few such got ups .Inc the robbed stock cut down & dumped but now its a rifle I hunted with .Its lock was an unsold Liege one made to convert US Springfields into flintlock trade guns the barrel one robbed on its bolster end . I've made up Afghan sorts & Scots sorts using old barrels .My Nigerian' Dane gun' was just the lock .not fakes just examples for display at public shows .
Rudyard's views on such things .
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Hi Tim
Like many others, this one is probably from the early to mid-1800's. Most of these Moroccan muskets you encounter are not as old as you would think. Hard to believe they were still making these guns using locks that originated in the late 16th Century. But that was the case.
Rick
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Hi Bob
RAMROD: If it does not come out easily using the method I mentioned, don't try and force it. Just wait till the barrel bands and barrel are off the stock.
LOCK: It's nice that the lock will hold in the cocked position. Most of these locks you encounter will not. The tip of the sear that protrudes through the lock plate and catches the inside of the hammer is usually worn short. You will want to purchase a mainspring vise if you don't already have one. You will need it. The mainsprings on these locks are usually very strong. The screws that won't back out a quarter turn: Yes, apply some Kroil oil. Do it once a day for about three days and try it again. Repeat as necessary. They will eventually loosen up. Patience is key here. LOL Once the two frizzen springs screws break free, you will want to decompress the frizzen spring first before removing the screws and frizzen. A pair of needle-nose vise grips should work (if you don't have a frizzen spring vise). You don't need to compress the frizzen spring completely. Just enough to separate it from touching the toe of the frizzen. Mainspring: Soak that screw in Kroil also with the other screws. But, you need to use the mainspring vise to compress the mainspring. Just enough to lift the rear of the spring away from the tumbler. That will also make removing the mainspring screw easier. Tumbler and Shaft: You will notice the tumbler is held on the shaft (the hammer and shaft are one piece) with a pin that is likely buggered up. LOL That pin needs to come out. It won't be re-used. A new one will be made. Soak that area in Kroil also. Try to bend the bent ears of the pin as straight as possible. Then use some pliers and try to wiggle/force it's way out. If that doesn't work, and/or the ears of the pin break off, don't worry. Just drill the pin out using about a 1/16" drill bit. Pan Cover and Arm: Yes, where the pan connects to the arm is somewhat loose. That is common with these Moroccan locks. They simply are not as precision made as their European counterparts. But it's ok. It will work. You will notice a small guide inside the pan area that keeps the cover straight when closed over the pan. Just keep re-soaking the lock once a day and re-try the screws. They will all eventually loosen.
Next Post: Barrel Bands. LOL
Rick
RAMROD: If it does not come out easily using the method I mentioned, don't try and force it. Just wait till the barrel bands and barrel are off the stock.
LOCK: It's nice that the lock will hold in the cocked position. Most of these locks you encounter will not. The tip of the sear that protrudes through the lock plate and catches the inside of the hammer is usually worn short. You will want to purchase a mainspring vise if you don't already have one. You will need it. The mainsprings on these locks are usually very strong. The screws that won't back out a quarter turn: Yes, apply some Kroil oil. Do it once a day for about three days and try it again. Repeat as necessary. They will eventually loosen up. Patience is key here. LOL Once the two frizzen springs screws break free, you will want to decompress the frizzen spring first before removing the screws and frizzen. A pair of needle-nose vise grips should work (if you don't have a frizzen spring vise). You don't need to compress the frizzen spring completely. Just enough to separate it from touching the toe of the frizzen. Mainspring: Soak that screw in Kroil also with the other screws. But, you need to use the mainspring vise to compress the mainspring. Just enough to lift the rear of the spring away from the tumbler. That will also make removing the mainspring screw easier. Tumbler and Shaft: You will notice the tumbler is held on the shaft (the hammer and shaft are one piece) with a pin that is likely buggered up. LOL That pin needs to come out. It won't be re-used. A new one will be made. Soak that area in Kroil also. Try to bend the bent ears of the pin as straight as possible. Then use some pliers and try to wiggle/force it's way out. If that doesn't work, and/or the ears of the pin break off, don't worry. Just drill the pin out using about a 1/16" drill bit. Pan Cover and Arm: Yes, where the pan connects to the arm is somewhat loose. That is common with these Moroccan locks. They simply are not as precision made as their European counterparts. But it's ok. It will work. You will notice a small guide inside the pan area that keeps the cover straight when closed over the pan. Just keep re-soaking the lock once a day and re-try the screws. They will all eventually loosen.
Next Post: Barrel Bands. LOL
Rick
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