"Use of shot is not permitted"

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Russ T Frizzen said:
Smoothbores may have been a rarity in some areas, but they were around in large numbers elsewhere. Surplus muskets, Northwest fusils and fowlers were hardly rare.
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The gentleman hunts in Ohio, Indiana, Illinois, Missouri, Mississippi, Kentucky, Tennessee, etc. etc. but spends a lot of time in Arkansas. He is mostly after deer but shoots bears, panthers, turkeys and even ducks with his rifle. He says smooth-bored guns are a rarity in the backwoods. I think I will believe him until I see documentation that says otherwise.

I am not sure why anyone would want to use shot for deer when a PRB from .45 on up works so well, but that's just me YMMV.
 
Buck and buck and ball loads were common in the old days. And buck used correctly is an efficient killer. Nor is there any difference between poorly used buck and poorly used ball. Both can wound if not used correctly
Nor could you cheat, if asked by a warden what’s in your gun you could have buck in the barrel and ball in your reload, but you would be found out on the checking.
But
A ball will do the job, it won’t be more dead from a buck hit
Save your stuff for play and treks, it ain’t wasted, just get dinner with a ball
 
thesethawa said:
I have had for a couple of years now a .69 caliber smoothbore musket. I deer hunt with it and love this gun. I use the gun as a shotgun quite often, loaded with 14 gauge wads and cards. One day I thought "What if I loaded it with buckshot and used it as a shotgun for muzzleloader season?" I bought a buckshot mold and cast a bunch of shot. I decided to double check the rules one more time to make sure it was okay. That was when I found myself scratching my head and frustrated with the muzzleloader regs in Arkansas. I looked a second time at the rules and noticed an unassuming little sentence that completely threw a wrench into my idea. 'Use of shot is not allowed.'

Here I have spent much effort making period correct, military type buckshot musket cartridges and now they're useless. I ask you all, why should buckshot not be allowed in large bore muzzleloaders? This gun is easily as deadly as a modern 20 gauge, and can be loaded with much larger buckshot. Even in the original military loads, which were of course black powder, it was called BUCK shot. There is no reason why I shouldn't be allowed to use buckshot in a muzzleloading shotgun. I want to know how I might send a letter or something to whoever it is appropriate to get this bad reg scrapped... Not really, because that would never work.
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Lots of wounded deer from buckshot. Like everything else in life, if it is used as intended and within it’s strict limits it does fine. But like everything else in life, who wants to be cramped by strict limits. That stretching of purpose is what has given buckshot the bad rap.
 
I have buck loaded in a couple of my unmentionable home defense guns. From foot to face in house room ranges it will stop a monster, but not go through the walls and kill the dog next door
It is idiots that misused it that give it a bad rap.
Still it can be tons of fun to shoot.
 
I've been argued with here in WA in regards to the "lethality" of a .58 Burton and a .600 x-ring slug I cast for a Snider-Enfield. Even after I show them pictures of deer who fell immediately, other hunters still insist its not humane.
 
Buckshot is also not permitted in Colorado on big game.. Buck and ball and buckshot only patterning at 25 yard targets show why I would not hunt with them if it were legal. Can see their devastation on massed troops but also how poor patterning could lead to a lost animal with a lot of suffering. .715 patched round balls in Curly Gostomski SITTING FOX 12 gauge barrel results in humane, one shot kills within 25 yards.
 
thesethawa said:
I have had for a couple of years now a .69 caliber smoothbore musket. I deer hunt with it and love this gun. I use the gun as a shotgun quite often, loaded with 14 gauge wads and cards. One day I thought "What if I loaded it with buckshot and used it as a shotgun for muzzleloader season?" I bought a buckshot mold and cast a bunch of shot. I decided to double check the rules one more time to make sure it was okay. That was when I found myself scratching my head and frustrated with the muzzleloader regs in Arkansas. I looked a second time at the rules and noticed an unassuming little sentence that completely threw a wrench into my idea. 'Use of shot is not allowed.'

Here I have spent much effort making period correct, military type buckshot musket cartridges and now they're useless. I ask you all, why should buckshot not be allowed in large bore muzzleloaders? This gun is easily as deadly as a modern 20 gauge, and can be loaded with much larger buckshot. Even in the original military loads, which were of course black powder, it was called BUCK shot. There is no reason why I shouldn't be allowed to use buckshot in a muzzleloading shotgun. I want to know how I might send a letter or something to whoever it is appropriate to get this bad reg scrapped... Not really, because that would never work.
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I do not know Arkansas law, but in Ohio it is not legal to use Buckshot in a shotgun for deer season. In a smoothbore musket it still must be a solid ball of 10 gauge or smaller. I suppose that is because shot or buckshot would result in more wounded deer. I agree with this law, and I don't think it should be changed. You can use a ball in your smoothbore. Save your Buckshot for other game that it is legal to use.
 
64Springer said:
I've played with this thing quite a bit. The closest I've come to a decent pattern is using a fiber wad cut in thirds and coated with bee's wax and coconut oil. I detest using separate over powder cards, thick cushion wads and thin over shot cards.

I've tried 50, 60 and 70 grains of 1.5F Swiss. That's all I could find to purchase.

If anyone in muzzle loading land has a tried and true .69 cal. cylinder bore recipe, I'm all ears. Actual experience only.
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Have you tried Skychiefs’ load?
A lot of people swear by it, it shows promise in my sxs 10 ga.
It’s counter-intuitive (to me at least) but the thick olive oil soaked wad goes in on top of the shot.
I have no idea where it goes but it doesn’t leave a hole in the pattern or hit the patterning board, at least at 25 yds.
I use 2 thin overshot cards on top of the powder, then over the shot that thick wad soaked in olive oil overnight.
It’s messy but shows promise.
 
Mustang65 said:
Most if not all states do not allow buckshot to hunt deer. It's always been a slug. That is definitely a more humane kill.
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I don’t know about other states, but here’s Georgia regs:
Shotguns- 20 gauge or larger loaded with slugs or buckshot. When hunting deer, it is not required to have a plug in the magazine of the shotgun and there is no magazine capacity restriction.

And I believe Alabama is the same.
 
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Mustang65 said:
Most if not all states do not allow buckshot to hunt deer. It's always been a slug. That is definitely a more humane kill.
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I don’t know that it’s more humane in its range. It’s just too many yahoos over ranged their shot, or took poor shots.
Too many guys guns are pulled out in deer season and collect dust the rest of the year
 
Michigan is legal for buckshot. I have used it in a few specific places and it performed well. Having said that, I don't recommend it for several reasons. First is poor penetration even in the larger 00 and 000 sizes. second, it punches very small holes and leaves a poor blood trail. Third is the temptation to talk running away shots that will only end up with hindquarters hit and no vital organs. Most hunters aim as if they are using a single projectile. If you superimpose a 30inch circle on a deer with the center on the heart/lung area, you will see that the back half of the pattern is non vital hits.
If, instead, one aims at the deer's neck the pattern is centered so that fringe hits are the head or Heart/lung area-all vital hits. Modern plated and buffered buckshot is MUCH more effective than soft lead at reduced velocity out of a muzzleloader. Just my 2 cents based on 35 years of deer hunting.
 
Reds said:
Ballistic Products has all your reloading needs meaning shot ups. I use there BP12s in my double Pedersoli for waterfowl and it patterns well. Hope this helps!!!
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yes, they are just the best.
 
tenngun said:
I don’t know that it’s more humane in its range. It’s just too many yahoos over ranged their shot, or took poor shots.
Too many guys guns are pulled out in deer season and collect dust the rest of the year
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That may be the reason for the Arkansas regs. An abundance of caution knowing there are a lot of unqualified and unethical (not)hunters out there. I've met more than a few and they scare me.
 
Rifleman1776 said:
That may be the reason for the Arkansas regs. An abundance of caution knowing there are a lot of unqualified and unethical (not)hunters out there. I've met more than a few and they scare me.
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A couple of years ago I was at the range. Two guys were ‘sighting in’ their guns for deer season. Initially they made a little fun of my SMR. But I was shooting good, not wining groups but very good for me.
They proceeded to shoot at a fifty yard target with six inch bulls.
They didn’t get one in the red and had several miss entirely, but at the end of a couple of dozen shots looked at my small group and were amazed ‘old guns’ shot so well. But proudly displayed their targets as ‘good enough for deer’
Yes buck in hands of ‘hunters’ like these would be nothing but cruel
And breech loader or front stuffer or even string and stick, people who ethically shoot are well outnumbered by ‘Numrods’
 
64Springer said:
If anyone in muzzle loading land has a tried and true .69 cal. cylinder bore recipe, I'm all ears. Actual experience only.
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I have a 12 gauge and one of the barrels is cylinder bore. Sky chief loads work okay, but if you use a plastic shot cup, the patterns can tighten tremendously. I got unslit ones from Ballistic Products, and by changing the depth, and amount of slits, the pattern changes pretty substantially. It takes some playing around with, but I do know that it will work with the right setup. I got it to shoot as well as the other modified choke barrel.
 
thesethawa said:
The pioneers mostly used smoothbore guns. Your charge weight and wadding can make a huge difference. That sounds like it's just blowing out the load, because a proper pattern should rival a cylinder bore modern shotgun.
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Many of the pioneers likely didn't care if they shot and wounded a deer to have it run away. There were more around the corner and no game wardens to yell at them. We don't operate that way today. It has been pretty established on this forum that buckshot is pretty mediocre out of a muzzleloader. Especially in terms of fairness toward the animal. Its ability to kill the animal is not in question. However, that killing is supposed to take seconds or minutes...not days. One of my fowlers is a larger bore that is jug choked. This does nothing to even remotely close the gap between it and a modern load of buckshot. If you were hunting to keep starvation at bay, or hoping to maim more red coats, then buckshot works fine.
 
CA is single projectile only unless it is prohibited by county ordinance, like they do in parts of So Cal (places I tend to avoid anyway).
  • (c) Except for the provisions of the following subsections (d) through (j), big game may only be taken by rifles using centerfire cartridges with softnose or expanding projectiles; bow and arrow (see Section 354 of these regulations for archery equipment regulations); or wheellock, matchlock, flintlock or percussion type, including "in-line" muzzleloading rifles using black powder or equivalent black powder substitute, including pellets, with a single projectile loaded from the muzzle and at least .40 caliber in designation
  • (d) Shotguns capable of holding not more than three shells firing single slugs may be used for the taking of deer, bear and wild pigs. In areas where the discharge of rifles or shotguns with slugs is prohibited by county ordinance, shotguns capable of holding not more than three shells firing size 0 or 00 buckshot may be used for the taking of deer only.
I'd want to be VERY close before using any kind of shot -- so close it would be almost like a slug. And if I'm going to be that close, I may as well just take the longbow.
 

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