"Use of shot is not permitted"

[Hammond79]

This is a fairly old thread but there is apparently some confusion about Arkansas Muzzleloading Regulations.
From the Arkansas Game and Fish Commission (AGFC) website:

"To be used for deer hunting, muzzleloading rifles must have a barrel 18 inches or longer and be .40 caliber or larger. Magnifying sights may be used. The use of shot is not legal. Legal muzzleloaders use flint, percussion cap, primer or electronic pulse, must have the bullet loaded through the muzzle and are not capable of firing a cartridge.

Hunters may use muzzleloading handguns with:

barrels 9 inches or longer
.45 caliber or larger if they shoot conical bullets (200 grains or heavier), or
.530 caliber or larger if they shoot round balls.
A hunter may carry a muzzleloading handgun of any caliber as backup to a muzzleloading rifle"

The real head scratcher is the restriction on buckshot. The regs for "modern gun" season allow buckshot in unmentionable shotguns above .410 gauge. Muzzle velocities of modern buckshot and blackpowder loads are comparable, so it's not a power issue. I have always wondered why the regulations are like that.

A theory of mine is based off the deep tradition of hunting with hounds in Arkansas. Dogs are not allowed during the muzzleloader season but are for certain areas and dates during modern gun (used to be almost state wide for modern gun). Perhaps the AGFC was lobbied by dog hunters to keep buckshot legal for modern gun, but banned it for muzzleloaders as hunting with dogs was not legal so the "need" was not there.

 

[smoothshooter]

I have had for a couple of years now a .69 caliber smoothbore musket. I deer hunt with it and love this gun. I use the gun as a shotgun quite often, loaded with 14 gauge wads and cards. One day I thought "What if I loaded it with buckshot and used it as a shotgun for muzzleloader season?" I bought a buckshot mold and cast a bunch of shot. I decided to double check the rules one more time to make sure it was okay. That was when I found myself scratching my head and frustrated with the muzzleloader regs in Arkansas. I looked a second time at the rules and noticed an unassuming little sentence that completely threw a wrench into my idea. 'Use of shot is not allowed.'

Here I have spent much effort making period correct, military type buckshot musket cartridges and now they're useless. I ask you all, why should buckshot not be allowed in large bore muzzleloaders? This gun is easily as deadly as a modern 20 gauge, and can be loaded with much larger buckshot. Even in the original military loads, which were of course black powder, it was called BUCK shot. There is no reason why I shouldn't be allowed to use buckshot in a muzzleloading shotgun. I want to know how I might send a letter or something to whoever it is appropriate to get this bad reg scrapped... Not really, because that would never work.

In the hands of too many deer hunters, buckshot is a “ wounder “.
It sickens me to think about all the broken jawbones, shot-out eyes, pellets lodged in stomachs and intestines, only to have the deer get away to die a painful and lingering death hours or days later.
Those things happen with bullets also, but I think it is much less common.

 

[user 53891]

In the hands of too many deer hunters, buckshot is a “ wounder “.
It sickens me to think about all the broken jawbones, shot-out eyes, pellets lodged in stomachs and intestines, only to have the deer get away to die a painful and lingering death hours or days later.
Those things happen with bullets also, but I think it is much less common.

I agree. I love to use a shotgun, but they have their place. Mainly for fowl......

 

[Eterry]

When I went to peace officer academy in '94 we were told, then showed, how buckshot performed.

Across the street or across the room there is no better weapon to stop someone. But the pattern opens up quickly; one inch per yard is the usual experience with cylinder bore.

Our trainers also told horror stories of fail to stop situations with buckshot. These were documented incidents, not folktales. They had little praise for OOB and #4 buck is pretty much useless past 10 yards.

In the early 2000's my chief made us turn in all issued buckshot and received slugs. The chief had just returned from chief school, their bi-annual training session. He told me that across a living room buck and slug both were equally effective. But with the slug we could expect to hit, or at least keep their heads down, at 100 yards.

We soon went to the range to qualify with slugs. We started by killing a junk car brought there for penetration test. The buckshot NEVER penetrated the doors but the slug often went thru both doors.

We shot buckshot at 25 yards, and a 2 foot spread was the norm. We were not impressed with its performance past 10 yards.

We shot slugs out to 100 yards. If you hold at the head you could expect a hit above the belt line, if you held steady .

We were shown ballistic figures showing buckshot has more muzzle energy than 5.56, but loses it quickly.

The SWAT team #2 operator (first thru the door) traded in his M4 for a pump 12 with buckshot for entry. But his M4 was strapped to his back, just in case.

If your average deer hunting takes place under 15 yards I think buckshot could be effective. But i also KNOW a PRB will be devastating at that range, and far beyond.

 

[Jay Templin]

I have had for a couple of years now a .69 caliber smoothbore musket. I deer hunt with it and love this gun. I use the gun as a shotgun quite often, loaded with 14 gauge wads and cards. One day I thought "What if I loaded it with buckshot and used it as a shotgun for muzzleloader season?" I bought a buckshot mold and cast a bunch of shot. I decided to double check the rules one more time to make sure it was okay. That was when I found myself scratching my head and frustrated with the muzzleloader regs in Arkansas. I looked a second time at the rules and noticed an unassuming little sentence that completely threw a wrench into my idea. 'Use of shot is not allowed.'

Here I have spent much effort making period correct, military type buckshot musket cartridges and now they're useless. I ask you all, why should buckshot not be allowed in large bore muzzleloaders? This gun is easily as deadly as a modern 20 gauge, and can be loaded with much larger buckshot. Even in the original military loads, which were of course black powder, it was called BUCK shot. There is no reason why I shouldn't be allowed to use buckshot in a muzzleloading shotgun. I want to know how I might send a letter or something to whoever it is appropriate to get this bad reg scrapped... Not really, because that would never work.

When I first started hunting in Virginia, black powder season was rifles only because the way the regulations were written they forbade guns that could be loaded with shot. I took my Brown Bess a few times but always with round ball. Now they’ll even let you use some non-muzzleloading black powder guns. Write that letter- the state cares more about your license revenue than about history and you might get the law changed in time for next season!
Jay

 

[Greg Y]

Help me understand. Every rifle I own shoots minute of deer to well past 100 yards. What does buckshot offer that even a mediocre rifle shooting a ball or conical doesn’t?

 

[Loyalist Dave]

Help me understand. Every rifle I own shoots minute of deer to well past 100 yards. What does buckshot offer that even a mediocre rifle shooting a ball or conical doesn’t?

It offers a rifle nothing.

Buckshot O or OO, offered, once upon a time when full size 16 or 12 gauge balls were tough to find, a rather devastating effect, IF the deer or bear were at 25 yards or closer. There is a LOT left over in hunting regs in many states as a result of The Great Depression.

The Pumpkin Ball also became popular, which is just a round ball. That's a .620 or .690 (usually) ball loaded into a 16 gauge or 12 gauge shotshell. The Brenneke slug was a European load, developed in 1898, not well known in USA. The Foster Slug was developed in 1931, but NOT patented until 1947. So the age old single round ball, was the only real slug choice. Finding them, was not as easy as buckshot. IF you could find them, you could remove the shot from the shell, and put in the single ball.

LD

 

[2 shots]

learn you smoothbore and shoot a single ball. im all for no buckshot for reasons already stated.

 

[Rancocas]

As others have already stated, buckshot can be devastating at close range. However, the pattern opens up real fast no matter what choke you might use.
In certain situations, such as a thick swamp, where shots are generally under 20 yards, and often at a fast-moving buck that is dodging through the underbrush, then buckshot may be a good choice for deer.
Although I have no personal experience with dangerous African game, I have read that some professional hunters use, or at least did use, buckshot when they had to enter thick underbrush in search of a wounded lion. Desperate shots would have been measured in mere feet.

I grew up at a time in a certain state when buckshot was the only option allowed for deer. I've killed several deer with 00 buckshot, all under 20 yards. Those deer dropped like they had been pole axed.
On the other hand, I remember my dad taking about a 50-yard shot at a buck. A doe, several steps behind that buck was hit in the head by one 00 pellet. Of course, she dropped on the spot. But it was illegal to kill a doe at that time and place. The buck, apparently, was never hit at all.
In another incident, my uncle fired at a buck. I don't know the range. The deer disappeared and when my uncle went to the spot it was last seen, he found no sign of it. However, he heard moaning, so moving on through thick underbrush toward the sound he found a man lying on the ground. One 00 buckshot pellet had penetrated through the underbrush and hit the guy in his neck. My uncle carried him out and to a hospital. The guy did recover.

So, I like 00 buckshot for inside home defense. Otherwise, not so much.

 

[Trigger]

I've met a few.. in MA

When it was smoothbore only days.. they loaded a slug followed by buck... I've never seen that combo kill anything.

hunted with a guy that used slug on slug on slug. .. bead sight. slug gun them down running being driven you know.. he said it just like shooting rabbit. the bead is right on. Says that buckshot is no good.. if you hit it with buckshot you would hit it with a slug the slug is allot better.

 

[smoothshooter]

In the hands of too many deer hunters, buckshot is a “ wounder “.
It sickens me to think about all the broken jawbones, shot-out eyes, pellets lodged in stomachs and intestines, only to have the deer get away to die a painful and lingering death hours or days later.
Those things happen with bullets also, but I think it is much less common.

I am against the use of buckshot for deer. Period.
It’s not so much about the shot-it’s more about the skill and self control of the hunter.