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Flintlock Rifle Flash Hole Placement

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M. De Land said:
I can sure tell the difference in ignition speed from a well tuned lock as apposed to one that is inconsistent, so can my scores.
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Of course a well tuned lock will give faster ignition. That's a given. But, the question wasn't if the lock is well tuned, it was touch hole placement. My custom built rifle with a hand tuned Siler Deluxe lock definitely is much faster than my Pedersoli factory stock flinter. Touchholes are about the same place for both.
 
The urban legend about the touch hole needing to be in the sunset position was debunked years ago.

Yours are fine. A $600 flintlock is probably going to have ignition and timing issues; but none will be due to the placement of the touch hole.
 
Jasonb1911 said:
Of course a well tuned lock will give faster ignition. That's a given. But, the question wasn't if the lock is well tuned, it was touch hole placement. My custom built rifle with a hand tuned Siler Deluxe lock definitely is much faster than my Pedersoli factory stock flinter. Touchholes are about the same place for both.
Click to expand...
Agree, fast ignition speed is the result of a well tuned lock. Touch hole location has little or no effect. Now having too small or too large a touch hole will certainly effect ignition speed.
 
Thank you everyone for your positive and uplifting responses. I feel much better about these rifles now.
 

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Yet another reason why Traditions guns are junk. They can't even be relied upon to get the flash hole positioned right.

It's why I build my own guns. Then I know the flash hole will be in the right place from the get go.
 
Sidney Smith said:
Yet another reason why Traditions guns are junk. They can't even be relied upon to get the flash hole positioned right.

It's why I build my own guns. Then I know the flash hole will be in the right place from the get go.
Click to expand...

I admire you guys who can build those guns. I've built a few myself but mostly my best work is not that great. But all of my guns are from kits that I built except my first TC Hawken from 50 years back.

Not everyone has the skill, time, tools or the MONEY to get into building so have to be satisfied with "junk" guns. FWIW, my "junk" guns regularly out shoot many custom or higher end guns so..................
 
R Ellis said:
Can you post pictures of the lock so we can see the flash hole area
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The 1st two images are for the Kentucky Rifle - flash hole low and forward. The last picture is the Hawken Woodsman - flash hole low and back.

You can see the flash holes are at the bottom of the pan.
 
Ruffedgrouse said:
Please help!!! I have just received 2 Traditions Flintlock Muzzleloader Rifles (Hawken Woodsman and Deluxe Kentucky Rifle both in 50 cal.) as gifts from my Wife. I have a number of percussion cap rifles as well as a couple of in-lines and have enjoyed muzzleloader shooting and hunting for decades.

My issue is, I've noticed the flash holes on both of these Traditions Flintlock Rifles are at the bottom of the pan. I have done extensive on-line research and every article and blog I've read tells me the hole on the flash hole should align at the top edge of the powder pan, like the setting sun on the horizon...

I have been reaching out to the head of Traditions customer service repeatedly for over a month, explaining my issues with this setup, allowing the flash hole to either be covered by powder, causing a delayed ignition or the powder going into the flash hole, causing a fusing effect and delayed fire. With a higher flash hole, the flame from the powder pan travels up and out - into the unblocked flash hole, delivering timely ignition. And, the frizzen helps cover the hole and prevent these powder issues from happening. I have sent links and blog comments in my emails to him, validating my concerns.

I am an active Wisconsin Outdoorsman and hunter and do want to be distracted by having to tap the lock side of the rifle to drive the powder to the outside and away from the flash hole before I shoot. In addition, the powder pans look a bit on the shallow side. As a hunter, we walk around the area we are hunting at times and this could cause the powder to shift with movement as we shoulder, switch hands, etc. covering up the flash hole. Hunting is not bench shooting...

After several weeks of repeatedly reaching out to the customer service/warranty manager through e-mails and voice mails, asking to try and find me rifles with the proper flash hole alignment, I was told, that's just the way the rifles are designed and if you don't like it, return the rifles to us and we will refund your money. I received this response from the customer service manager after considerable frustration and finally leaving a message for CEO of Traditions Firearms.

As a last resort, I could invest in a spring vise, remove the powder pan from the lock, file down the under edge of the powder pan, thus dropping it lower in relation to the flash hole. But, why void the warranty and who knows what other issues this would cause with frizzen alignment, etc.

As someone who has been hunting for decades, I firmly believe we owe it to the animals we hunt to make a quick, humane, and accurate shot - not be distracted by a hang-fire - or the thought of.

Is this what is to be expected of a $600 dollar Flintlock?

These are my 1st Flintlock Muzzleloader Rifles and the input and advice of Muzzleloading Forum members would be greatly appreciated.

V/R,

Ruffedgrouse
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I have a Lyman left hand flint-lock and one of the things I observed after using it for several years was the flash hole was below a line that would be at the top of the pan. As the Flint and hammer assembly and pan are not fastened to the barrel, but to the side of the stock, I was able to raise the back of the barrel by raising the Tang that the barrel locks into, being it's a Hawkins design, with nothing more than a Shim, and it made the flash just above a line that would be at the top of the pan instead of being below that line. It did seem to help was hang Fires and was a simple thing to do.
Squint
 
longcruise said:
I admire you guys who can build those guns. I've built a few myself but mostly my best work is not that great. But all of my guns are from kits that I built except my first TC Hawken from 50 years back.

Not everyone has the skill, time, tools or the MONEY to get into building so have to be satisfied with "junk" guns. FWIW, my "junk" guns regularly out shoot many custom or higher end guns so..................
Click to expand...
I highly doubt your last statement.
 
flconch53 said:
Looking at your photos you haven't shot them yet. Just go shoot. If they don't work then worry
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Looking at the photos, you are apt to get pan primer ( if it’s fine like 4f) going into that funneled touch hole. That could cause slow ignition.
If you leave the gun as is, you might want to cant the gun to the right just before you level it for your shot to clear the touch hole of any priming and better your luck for a quick discharge.
At any rate, have fun and enjoy the gun.
 
The one photo the vent hole looks perfectly aligned at the sunset position from center of hole. Not sure which rifle it is. Either way shoot them then decide if you have a problem. Don't try an fix something that isn't broke.
 
Jasonb1911 said:
Of course a well tuned lock will give faster ignition. That's a given. But, the question wasn't if the lock is well tuned, it was touch hole placement. My custom built rifle with a hand tuned Siler Deluxe lock definitely is much faster than my Pedersoli factory stock flinter. Touchholes are about the same place for both.
Click to expand...
I consider flash hole profile and placement part of tuning a lock correctly as I build and repair flint guns.
Pletcher did demonstrate that pan powder banked away from the flash hole ignited faster than banked toward the hole which probably covered or partially covered it. He did not specifically address placement of flash hole depth that I can recall. Logic would dictate the same would likely hold true for a buried flash hole , although ones senses might not be able to detect it ones scores will reveal it though as muzzle movement off target is also mil-second influenced.
 
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I killed several deer with my Traditions Pennsylvania Rifle with the same touchhole situation. Also have some good competition scores.
One thing to keep in mind when hunting is that you should periodically during the day pick the touchhole and re-prime the pan- even sitting in a stand. I had a no-fire on a deer once on a blue bird day after only having it primed for a couple of hours or so. Priming just fizzled and then the reprime just flashed. Need to make sure touchhole is clear. Gives you something to do.
 
Traditions are not custom, everyone knows that. But for the most part it’s the man not the machine.
Those guns will shoot every bit as well as one costing five to ten times more.
Thank your wife for a great gift
Now learn to shoot it.
Dry fire with a wood flint
Hold on target. Follow through
Even the very best flinter that gives the fastest possible ignition only hits its peak nine out of ten times. There is always a slight delay
Learn to stay on target though any such hang fire
Old guns often had just straight touchhole and no conning. And some could see breeches over an inch in .36 caliber guns. Talk about hangfire
But the boys that had them were popping squirrel heads all day long.
 
EC121 said:
Hard to tell without a picture but the vent location isn't all that critical. Have you tried it or are you crying before you are hit. Just don't fill the pan up all the way.


In today's market that is exactly what you can expect from a $600 Italian/Spanish flintlock.
Click to expand...
Unfortunately, I do a lot of research and pay considerable attention to detail. I think an integral part of a Flintlock should be done correctly by the manufacturer/importer. This is not a very difficult task. When I reviewed both rifles, it would not be difficult to do correctly by the manufacturer...
 

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