.32 caliber frustrations with not grouping.

JDBraddy · Jul 4, 2024

MAC1967 said:
I agree with this.
I'll even poke the bear a little more . . . I think the least important factor in the load is patch lube. I've tried different patch lubes once I got the powder, ball, and patch thickness set . . and they didn't make much difference in accuracy in my .32, 50, or smoothbore. A lubed patch loads nicer . . and probably impacts fowling, but when I collect shot patches downrange they all look the same. . . I am not saying it doesn't make any difference, I just think it is the least of the factors. . . case in point, a lot of guys talk about their loads and many have the same powder volume, ball, and patch thickness, but far less common is the same lube. . . but I'm very open to hearing people disagree. . . and I say that even as a fan of Dutch Schultz's methods.

My experience is a little different, I typically use the Dutch Schutz method, after numerous trials, settled on 1:8 ballistol and water, shooting consistently under an inch.

Experimented with numerous concentrations of Dawn, olive oil, tallow, etc... even tried several commercial products, and had trouble grouping even 2-3 inches with everything else the same.

The only thing I found that would shoot as well in my guns was the green Teflon coated patch material bought from Mr. Arrowwood, but don't have the ability to make that myself.

MAC1967 · Jul 4, 2024

Pete G said:
I have a .36 that I could never get to group until I changed the lube. After that, it tightened up considerably. Only one that I’ve ever had to do this.

What kind of lube did you go from and to? I am always open to learning and often wrong. Just curious. I have a tin can of a lube I bought from Flintlocks Inc and it is kind of pink. It seems really nice, but I've not used it. I had a .32 Crockett I could not get to shoot well, in spite of its great reputation, and tried all sorts of lubes and other combos. I sold the rifle and built the TVM kit.

okawbow · Jul 5, 2024

Pretty sure the OP’s vent is not 1/64”. Never even saw a drill that size, or a normal drill chuck that goes down that small. Most accuracy problems are caused by blown patches. Most blown patches are caused by poor muzzle crowns or rough bores, or too thin/ wrong patch material. I shoot a .30 caliber rifle using a .300 ball and .020” denim patch. I have a good ball starter with a concave short nub. The ball is easily swaged into the bore and goes down easily after starting. The patches could be used again, and that is a key indicator of potential accuracy. The best starting point for small caliber accuracy always seems to be an equal grains of powder as the caliber. Load can then be adjusted up or down until one gets the best grouping.

Grenadier1758 · Jul 5, 2024

The OP hasn't been back since we questioned the 1/64" touch hole. I searched for the "certified Grade B gage pins" and can't find any.

40calFlintlock said:
Thank you for your response.

The touch hole is 1/64” diameter, verified with certified grade ‘B’ gage pins. A .016dia pin will not go and a .015dia pin will go.

Pete G · Jul 5, 2024

MAC1967 said:
What kind of lube did you go from and to? I am always open to learning and often wrong. Just curious. I have a tin can of a lube I bought from Flintlocks Inc and it is kind of pink. It seems really nice, but I've not used it. I had a .32 Crockett I could not get to shoot well, in spite of its great reputation, and tried all sorts of lubes and other combos. I sold the rifle and built the TVM kit.p

Tried Hoppe’s 9+, Balistol (various dilutions w/water), zip lube, mink oil, and crisco. Finally tried Bore Butter and saw an immediate improvement in accuracy, but it requires swabbing the bore frequently to avoid any buildup. I don’t like BB but there it is.

kyron4 · Jul 5, 2024

Grenadier1758 said:
The OP hasn't been back since we questioned the 1/64" touch hole. I searched for the "certified Grade B gage pins" and can't find any.

Yeah, as a machinist I never heard of them either. We have precision ground hardened tool steel pin sets in .001" increments , no "certified grade" that I know is listed. I have to assume it is not a 1/64" hole and there was some confusion.

SDSmlf · Jul 5, 2024

Grenadier1758 said:
The OP hasn't been back since we questioned the 1/64" touch hole. I searched for the "certified Grade B gage pins" and can't find any.

kyron4 said:
as a machinist I never heard of them either. We have precision ground hardened tool steel pin sets in .001" increments , no "certified grade" that I know is listed.

There are classes of gauge pins (ZZ, Z, XX, and X for example) that cover deviations in the manufacturing process for tolerances and geometry. I also am not sure of what the OP is referencing, but there may be something to learn…. never say never.

One would think that if the OP spent two years on a DOE study they would have the diameter of the touch nailed down, though I was surprised they didn’t your the diameter variation as an input in the study.

As far as gauge pin diameters, I have sets that go down to .011” and drills that go down to a little over .013”, so creating and measuring the diameters the OP is using is very much doable, though I don’t believe 1/64” diameter is practical for touch holes, but admit I have never tried that size. In my mind I struggle to go smaller that 5/54” (.078”) based on actual shooting over the years.

40calFlintlock said:
The touch hole is 1/64” diameter, verified with certified grade ‘B’ gage pins. A .016dia pin will not go and a .015dia pin will go.

hanshi · Jul 8, 2024

I believe that 40calFlintlock either has a mess on his hands, a lousy barrel, a self-made problem or is in the Twilight Zone. Barring a bad barrel, overly large vent hole, I see nothing probative in his post.

I've had (2) .32 rifles, a Crockett and a .32 SMR. The Crockett was, well, incredible. It shot great with about any powder charge. But generally I used 30 grns of 3F. The one now in my safe is flintlock longrifle and it's a beauty. That rifle is a laser with 20 grns of Swiss 3F. Just for fun I discovered it did the same thing just as well with 40 grns of 3F Goex. But I don't hunt and have no need of anything other than an accurate powderpuff load good to 50 yards.

The SMR I've had around 8 years and will even shoot well with 12 grns of 3F. Now if the OP can't get a ball fired out of the barrel with 12 grns of 3F it means there's another large hole in the barrel that's letting gas escape. The vent liner is my guess. All mine are 1/16" with absolute reliability, barring a bad flint. Any decent .32 should put at least 5 shots in a "pinky-finger" size hole at 25 yds. Mine has done better than that well past 25 yds. Something about this thread doesn't exactly smell right.

40calFlintlock · Jul 8, 2024

MAC1967 said:
What kind of lube did you go from and to? I am always open to learning and often wrong. Just curious. I have a tin can of a lube I bought from Flintlocks Inc and it is kind of pink. It seems really nice, but I've not used it. I had a .32 Crockett I could not get to shoot well, in spite of its great reputation, and tried all sorts of lubes and other combos. I sold the rifle and built the TVM kit.

I use pure Crisco for all of my flintlocks: 32, 40, .58, and Brown Bess paper cartridges.

JDBraddy · Jul 8, 2024

hanshi said:
I believe that 40calFlintlock either has a mess on his hands, a lousy barrel, a self-made problem or is in the Twilight Zone. Barring a bad barrel, overly large vent hole, I see nothing probative in his post.

I've had (2) .32 rifles, a Crockett and a .32 SMR. The Crockett was, well, incredible. It shot great with about any powder charge. But generally I used 30 grns of 3F. The one now in my safe is flintlock longrifle and it's a beauty. That rifle is a laser with 20 grns of Swiss 3F. Just for fun I discovered it did the same thing just as well with 40 grns of 3F Goex. But I don't hunt and have no need of anything other than an accurate powderpuff load good to 50 yards.

The SMR I've had around 8 years and will even shoot well with 12 grns of 3F. Now if the OP can't get a ball fired out of the barrel with 12 grns of 3F it means there's another large hole in the barrel that's letting gas escape. The vent liner is my guess. All mine are 1/16" with absolute reliability, barring a bad flint. Any decent .32 should put at least 5 shots in a "pinky-finger" size hole at 25 yds. Mine has done better than that well past 25 yds. Something about this thread doesn't exactly smell right.

Many of us old farts can't even see a pinky finger sized hole at 25yds, much less put 5 shots into group that size using iron sights, even if the gun/load are capable of doing it.

hanshi · Jul 11, 2024

JDBraddy said:
Many of us old farts can't even see a pinky finger sized hole at 25yds, much less put 5 shots into group that size using iron sights, even if the gun/load are capable of doing it.

I can't see those things either. At 77 my eyes are mostly gone. Let's pretend - makes more sense - I meant pinky-length distance from the muzzle to the target. That's what, around 3 inches? Now I can handle that! I was a different person 30 years ago. :ghostly:

JDBraddy · Jul 11, 2024

Below are load development targets shot yesterday @ 50yds with new .36cal T/C Seneca. Went from left to right, top to bottom, shot the center last. increasing FFFg charge 5gr. each successive target, 20, 25, 30, 35, 40gr. Decided to stick with 30gr. for now, will try varying patch material next trip to the range.

hanshi · Jul 11, 2024

I just found this target I shot with my keenly mourned Crockett. It's not the best it's ever done but is quite typical of my rifle and load.

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Indy Durtdigger · Jul 11, 2024

JDBraddy said:
Below are load development targets shot yesterday @ 50yds with new .36cal T/C Seneca. Went from left to right, top to bottom, shot the center last. increasing FFFg charge 5gr. each successive target, 20, 25, 30, 35, 40gr. Decided to stick with 30gr. for now, will try varying patch material next trip to the range.

View attachment 333294

View attachment 333295

Bot of those bottom groups are pretty good. That right one despite the flier is the better of the two. Haven't read the whole thread but a new nipple might help a tad if you don't already have one. While I probably can't do it anymore my .32 Cherokee would make one-hole groups at 30 yards eons ago when I used to shoot it all the time.
Don't tell anyone but it did it with 30gr of Triple Seven and regular old number 11 caps. Popular wisdom says that shouldn't be possible.

40calFlintlock · Jul 18, 2024

To everyone who replied- Thank You!

Reading through all responses, I selected several ideas that I felt would have the greatest impact in improving the performance of my flintlock.

I enlarged the vent hole to1/64”dia. Used a “wet” patch lube of equal parts of: Dawn dishwashing soap, concentrated Murphy’s oil soap, Pine-Sol, and rubbing alcohol. Took 10 shots per each of three trials, using a NMLRA 100yd target at 50yds, using a sandbag rest, with excellent results, and No misfires.

I enjoyed reading all replies - some thought provoking, others brought a good smile.

Again, thank you everyone for sharing your thoughts with suggestions to help me.

SDSmlf · Jul 18, 2024

40calFlintlock said:
I enlarged the vent hole to1/64”dia.

Do you really mean 1/64” (just under .016”). Or maybe something a bit larger, like 1/16” (.062” or so)?

waksupi · Jul 19, 2024

okawbow said:
Pretty sure the OP’s vent is not 1/64”. Never even saw a drill that size, or a normal drill chuck that goes down that small.

A Jacobson chuck will go down to zero. Bits go down to finer than a hair. You are right about the diameter, though. Lots of us old timers used a matchbook cover to set spark plugs to .032.

kyron4 · Jul 19, 2024

SDSmlf said:
Do you really mean 1/64” (just under .016”). Or maybe something a bit larger, like 1/16” (.062” or so)?

It does seem strange, the flash hole in a nipple is around .025" and that is tiny. Can't imagine .016" in a flintlock would work well if at all.

Taevers · Jul 19, 2024

kyron4 said:
It does seem strange, the flash hole in a nipple is around .025" and that is tiny. Can't imagine .016" in a flintlock would work well if at all.

He prolly means.0625 ; just doesn’t quite understand the fraction equivalent.

40calFlintlock · Jul 19, 2024

SDSmlf said:
Do you really mean 1/64” (just under .016”). Or maybe something a bit larger, like 1/16” (.062” or so)?

Oops, I meant 1/16”. Drill measures .060 on the shaft.

Sincerely, thanks for catching that.

.32 caliber frustrations with not grouping.

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