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Kibler fowler, a couple of photos,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

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I think we are all aware that anyone’s kit is not comparable to a truly hand built rifle in skillset acquired and time needed to acquire the knowledge and skills needed to scratch build plus time.
Not all scratch builds are perfect. One that I was gifted was such a disaster that it took many hours to correct this “builder’s” mistakes.
In that way my Kibler Colonial far exceeded the quality, reliability of that one and others I have seen. Jim’s outstanding knowledge shows all the details absolutely required to make a historically accurate and correctly designed firearm. It blew that scratch build away.
The skills and knowledge needed to make a scratch build are indeed impressive however not all who want a beautiful correct flintlock have the skills and time or space needed to plank build.
If folks want a flintlock they can buy a prebuilt one from Italy, Spain, or India. They may or
may not have very real regrets afterwards.
If those folks want a truly beautiful, reliable, fine flintlock the kit choices are there. Having experienced the gamut of kits the best one out there is a Kibler.
Chambers are great too but the skill and knowledge needed to have the gun correctly assembled are far greater.
Kibler is the way to go. You will learn why the barrel to lock relationship, the touch hole location, the trigger to sear relationship and proper fit and inletting are so important. After a Kibler kit most new to flintlocks can see mistakes in poor quality in many other factory guns or poorly assembled kits or even poorly built plank builds. Kibler kits are a ‘hands on’ educational experience.
I do not intend to diminish the skills of the gifted scratch builders. Their talents are amazing.
Jim Kibler brings these things to his kits for those who cannot devote their life to acquiring the skills needed to end up with a fine rifle.
 
Last edited:
mikesto44 said:
I'll be a pain too...their is NO actual building to the Kibler kits. There is some minor wood removal and metal finishing. Then staining the stock. Basically all the wood to metal fit is done by Kibler CNC. See your own photos for proof.
When referring to building a gun. The builders refer to a blank piece of stock where YOU inlet the barrel, lock, triggers and shape and finish the gun. Plus actually make your own sights, ramrod thimble and maybe the triggers. Some builders make their own locks and barrels.
This is what they mean by building
Nothing wrong with Kiblers kits or the people who enjoy putting them together. You end up with a fantastic firearm. I've done three Kibler kits..! But
once you build a gun from scratch as we call it. You will realize the huge difference. JMPO
Click to expand...
I hope your definition of building from scratch means:
Forging the barrel from locally produced wrought iron. Constructing your own taps, dies, screws, all lock parts including springs, breeching, boring and rifling, (all in your own built rifling jig), sand casting your own brass or steel parts including triggers and guards, butt plates entry pipes and sights.
Only a few have those skills. Perhaps you are one of them.
Building from wood and collected parts is also an amazing skillset.
 
The quest for historical authenticity of fabrication, final configuration and materials is laudable and is a hobby in its own right, but compromises to practicality abound. Kibler makes his own locks and barrels unlike most in the 18th century. A true owner hand built replica would be impressive, but even such a creation would start with modern materials and use a few power tools and sandpaper, working under incandescent light. The gunsmith shop at Colonial Williamsburg used to do this to sell authentic replicas, whatever that means. The wait and cost was formidable, but the process was impressive, especially hand forging twist steel barrels around a mandrel.
 
Sidney Smith said:
Don't you mean you'll be assembling this gun? Looks to me like it's already built.

That's why I will never buy one of these. As nice as they are, there's simply no challenge involved.
Click to expand...
Dear Sidney,
If you have the skills and tools build yours.
Don't dis someone who can't or doesn't want to spend the time to do that.
If not drop out or find something else. Quit btitching about someone's work.This may be all you can do.
 
olskool said:
of course, i am no real from scratch "builder" never claimed to be! i call myself a transmission builder, but i certainly don't take a raw piece of steel and aluminum and "build" them from that! but yet i am a builder just the same! now that i have that straight i have been out in my shop all morning sanding and fitting the butt plate and trigger guard, this stuff is not all done by no means. to do it right it will take me about 3 weeks to complete. oh, and this is my 14th Kibler! not my 3rd. so, i have learned some lessons. i am showing the photos because i was asked to, not to argue about if the people that put these together are real builders or not, good Lord brother enjoy the photos as i do it, chill out,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
Click to expand...

Snooterpup said:
I think we are all aware that anyone’s kit is not comparable to a truly hand built rifle in skillset acquired and time needed to acquire the knowledge and skills needed to scratch build plus time.
Not all scratch builds are perfect. One that I was gifted was such a disaster that it took many hours to correct this “builder’s” mistakes.
In that way my Kibler Colonial far exceeded the quality, reliability of that one and others I have seen. Jim’s outstanding knowledge shows all the details absolutely required to make a historically accurate and correctly designed firearm. It blew that scratch build away.
The skills and knowledge needed to make a scratch build are indeed impressive however not all who want a beautiful correct flintlock have the skills and time or space needed to plank build.
If folks want a flintlock they can buy a prebuilt one from Italy, Spain, or India. They may of may not have very real regrets afterwards.
If those folks want a truly beautiful, reliable, fine flintlock the kit choices are there. Having experienced the gamut of kits the best for one out there is a Kibler.
Chambers are great too but the skill and knowledge needed to have the gun correctly assembled are far greater.
Kibler is the way to go. You will learn why the barrel to lock relationship, the touch hole location, the trigger to sear relationship and proper fit and inletting are so important. After a Kibler kit most new to flintlocks can see mistakes in poor quality in many other factory guns or poorly assembled kits or even poorly built plank builds. Kibler kits are a ‘hands on’ educational experience.
I do not intend to diminish the skills of the gifted scratch builders. Their talents are amazing.
Jim Kibler brings these things to his kits for those who cannot devote their life to acquiring the skills needed to end up with a fine rifle.
Click to expand...
Well said.
 
olskool said:
go ahead, give it a try, then come back and tell me how easy it is. i am already trying to figure out details and problems and it aint even out of the box good yet. sure, i could slop some finish on and drive the barrel in the wood and be shooting it in a couple of days and call it done. it is the details that talk to you when it is done. i can't wait to see yours! please let us know when it is done with photos,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
Click to expand...
I guarantee you sir, I could easily put one of those kits together. I'm on my fifth gun, and all required much more work to finish than simply shaving some wood from a 98% complete inlet that was done at the factory.
 
Buffalorunner said:
Dear Sidney,
If you have the skills and tools build yours.
Don't dis someone who can't or doesn't want to spend the time to do that.
If not drop out or find something else. Quit btitching about someone's work.This may be all you can do.
Click to expand...
Since they posted here, they are subject to public scrutiny. It's not bitching, its my observation which I have a right to.
 
olskool said:
of course, i am no real from scratch "builder" never claimed to be! i call myself a transmission builder, but i certainly don't take a raw piece of steel and aluminum and "build" them from that! but yet i am a builder just the same! now that i have that straight i have been out in my shop all morning sanding and fitting the butt plate and trigger guard, this stuff is not all done by no means. to do it right it will take me about 3 weeks to complete. oh, and this is my 14th Kibler! not my 3rd. so, i have learned some lessons. i am showing the photos because i was asked to, not to argue about if the people that put these together are real builders or not, good Lord brother enjoy the photos as i do it, chill out,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
Click to expand...
Olskool, I've seen your guns, you do a great with them. I appreciate that you post pictures of them
If I could not do it myself, I would reach out to you and pay you to assemble my Kibler Kit. With out hesitation. Again your guns are beautiful.
I've assembled 2 of Jim Kibler's kits. A Colonial and a SMR. Both have flaws, my flaws. The minor mistakes I made on my Colonial. I did not repeat on my SMR. They are my flaws, every time I use one of them it will remind me not to makethe same mistakes.
When I show someone a picture of them, or so them the actual rifles, I make it clear, I assembled them, i did not build them from a plank and parts.
Hopefully one day I'll will Build a rifle from a plank and parts. Until then I'll continue to assemble Kibler Kits. I appreciate what Jim Kibler has to offer. I know I'm developing skills and an eye from, assembling these rifle kits.
Thanks again for the photos and please continue to post your work.

Take Care Stay Safe.

Fred
 
Snooterpup said:
I think we are all aware that anyone’s kit is not comparable to a truly hand built rifle in skillset acquired and time needed to acquire the knowledge and skills needed to scratch build plus time.
Not all scratch builds are perfect. One that I was gifted was such a disaster that it took many hours to correct this “builder’s” mistakes.
In that way my Kibler Colonial far exceeded the quality, reliability of that one and others I have seen. Jim’s outstanding knowledge shows all the details absolutely required to make a historically accurate and correctly designed firearm. It blew that scratch build away.
The skills and knowledge needed to make a scratch build are indeed impressive however not all who want a beautiful correct flintlock have the skills and time or space needed to plank build.
If folks want a flintlock they can buy a prebuilt one from Italy, Spain, or India. They may of may not have very real regrets afterwards.
If those folks want a truly beautiful, reliable, fine flintlock the kit choices are there. Having experienced the gamut of kits the best for one out there is a Kibler.
Chambers are great too but the skill and knowledge needed to have the gun correctly assembled are far greater.
Kibler is the way to go. You will learn why the barrel to lock relationship, the touch hole location, the trigger to sear relationship and proper fit and inletting are so important. After a Kibler kit most new to flintlocks can see mistakes in poor quality in many other factory guns or poorly assembled kits or even poorly built plank builds. Kibler kits are a ‘hands on’ educational experience.
I do not intend to diminish the skills of the gifted scratch builders. Their talents are amazing.
Jim Kibler brings these things to his kits for those who cannot devote their life to acquiring the skills needed to end up with a fine rifle.
Click to expand...
Well said!
 
Snooterpup said:
I think we are all aware that anyone’s kit is not comparable to a truly hand built rifle in skillset acquired and time needed to acquire the knowledge and skills needed to scratch build plus time.
Not all scratch builds are perfect. One that I was gifted was such a disaster that it took many hours to correct this “builder’s” mistakes.
In that way my Kibler Colonial far exceeded the quality, reliability of that one and others I have seen. Jim’s outstanding knowledge shows all the details absolutely required to make a historically accurate and correctly designed firearm. It blew that scratch build away.
The skills and knowledge needed to make a scratch build are indeed impressive however not all who want a beautiful correct flintlock have the skills and time or space needed to plank build.
If folks want a flintlock they can buy a prebuilt one from Italy, Spain, or India. They may of may not have very real regrets afterwards.
If those folks want a truly beautiful, reliable, fine flintlock the kit choices are there. Having experienced the gamut of kits the best for one out there is a Kibler.
Chambers are great too but the skill and knowledge needed to have the gun correctly assembled are far greater.
Kibler is the way to go. You will learn why the barrel to lock relationship, the touch hole location, the trigger to sear relationship and proper fit and inletting are so important. After a Kibler kit most new to flintlocks can see mistakes in poor quality in many other factory guns or poorly assembled kits or even poorly built plank builds. Kibler kits are a ‘hands on’ educational experience.
I do not intend to diminish the skills of the gifted scratch builders. Their talents are amazing.
Jim Kibler brings these things to his kits for those who cannot devote their life to acquiring the skills needed to end up with a fine rifle.
Click to expand...
Yes, one thing I believe most fail to recognize is that in terms historical correctness, aesthetics, fit, finish etc, our kits are probably better than 90% or more guns built from a blank. Those that build guns in this category don’t always want to admit this to themselves.

These conclusions aren’t from the perspective of a kit gun producer, but rather a respected former high level custom longrifle builder.

Now, this doesn’t mean that building from a blank doesn’t have its benefits. You can learn a great deal, you can get a lot of satisfaction from creating something yourself, there are endless designs and styles that can be built etc.

They are really just different animals that work for different people. I can say with certainty that our business and efforts have brought thousands of people into traditional muzzloading that likely would never have been part of it.
 
James Kibler said:
Yes, one thing I believe most fail to recognize is that in terms historical correctness, aesthetics, fit, finish etc, our kits are probably better than 90% or more guns built from a blank. Those that build guns in this category don’t always want to admit this to themselves.

These conclusions aren’t from the perspective of a kit gun producer, but rather a respected former high level custom longrifle builder.

Now, this doesn’t mean that building from a blank doesn’t have its benefits. You can learn a great deal, you can get a lot of satisfaction from creating something yourself, there are endless designs and styles that can be built etc.

They are really just different animals that work for different people. I can say with certainty that our business and efforts have brought thousands of people into traditional muzzloading that likely would never have been part of it.
Click to expand...
Im one of those people Jim. Thanks for bringing me into the world of amazing muzzleloaders.
 
I see it’s now costing nearly $1500 for a shipped Kibler kit including the lock... their prices keep climbing. Hoping they don’t price themselves out of the unique niche they’ve made in the market.

I’m also noticing the “encouraged” walnut option is $160 more expensive than either standard maple or cherry... what’s up with that?
 
Last edited:
Snooterpup said:
I hope your definition of building from scratch means:
Forging the barrel from locally produced wrought iron. Constructing your own taps, dies, screws, all lock parts including springs, breeching, boring and rifling, (all in your own built rifling jig), sand casting your own brass or steel parts including triggers and guards, butt plates entry pipes and sights.
Only a few have those skills. Perhaps you are one of them.
Building from wood and collected parts is also an amazing skillset.
Click to expand...
Why? The old original builders didn’t often do all of that. Locks were often imported from Europe, mostly England, there were barrel mills that supplied those, there were founders that poured the brass parts and sold them, and imports.
 
Smokey Plainsman said:
I see it’s now costing nearly $1500 for a shipped Kibler kit including the lock... their prices keep climbing. Hoping they don’t price themselves out of the unique niche they’ve made in the market.

I’m also noticing the “encouraged” walnut option is $160 more expensive than either standard maple or cherry... what’s up with that?
Click to expand...
Have you seen the prices of steels lately?
 
Smokey Plainsman said:
I see it’s now costing nearly $1500 for a shipped Kibler kit including the lock... their prices keep climbing. Hoping they don’t price themselves out of the unique niche they’ve made in the market.

I’m also noticing the “encouraged” walnut option is $160 more expensive than either standard maple or cherry... what’s up with that?
Click to expand...
So currently, our SMR and Colonial in standard wood goes for $1185. If someone prices individual components for building such a gun from a blank it's probably around a grand or so and nothing is really very complete. We also offer sales now and then which helps. In addition we offer "second" stocks at a discount.

As to the fowler, the base wood option sells for $1335. This difference is primarily due to the additional work required on our end. Some things that contribute to this:

Octagon to round barrel production is more time consuming.
Underlugs and sights are soldered on the barrel by us.
Relief carving is included on the fowler. Although the machine does a good job, a fair amount of time is require for us to clean it up by hand.
Ramrods are bell shaped. That is they flare near the muzzle. This is a more time consuming design to produce.
Finally as compared to the SMR and Colonial, the rifle is more complete when the customer receives it. The buttplate and guard are fit and installed.

We have worked very hard to provide the very best value in traditional muzzleloading and I think most would agree that we've done a very good job.

All the best,
Jim
 
Smokey Plainsman said:
I see it’s now costing nearly $1500 for a shipped Kibler kit including the lock... their prices keep climbing. Hoping they don’t price themselves out of the unique niche they’ve made in the market.

I’m also noticing the “encouraged” walnut option is $160 more expensive than either standard maple or cherry... what’s up with that?
Click to expand...
Walnut is more expensive.
 

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