Anyone shooting N. African snaphaunces?

rickystl · Jul 18, 2024

Hi Bob.

BARREL BANDS: As you probably noticed, the bands are just compression fitted to the barrel and stock. The original bands themselves were cut to the desired length for each section of the tapered, round barrel. The two edges of each band was then folded in reverse of each other to form a type of clamp. Then soldered together. Seems each band was made to fit about 1/4-1/2" in front of the desired position and then pulled backward for a snug fit. Tedious work. Your Gun: Start with the front band. Pull forward toward the muzzle. Be careful as the thin fore end portion of the stock may be brittle. Wearing a thin leather type glove helps with this. Once the front band is removed, take a piece of masking tape and use a dry marker and write the numeral 1 on the tape. Repeat with each band writing 2, 3, 4, etc. This way you will know the sequence later on when replacing them back on the gun. This way, you can determine later on which original bands can be repaired/re-used along with any new ones that need to be made.

Next Post: Barrel.

Rick

JBrandon · Jul 18, 2024

rickystl said:
Hi Bob

Nice piece. It's from the same area of Morocco as my Post #4 above. The entire gun, including the lock appear to be complete. The two missing lock screws are easy to replace. Especially since you still have one original to duplicate. Do you have a photo of the Left side of the lock area ?
You mention that you might like to get this gun restored to shooting condition (?) If so, you have a good candidate for doing so. Your's, lacking lots of decoration will make it much easier to do any minor stock repairs, if needed. As a "wall hanger" it looks good as-is. If you want to make a shooter, I would be happy to offer some tips on dis-assembly and restoration. We can take it a step at a time, here on this open Forum, or by PM. Let me know what I can do to help. We will take it a step at a time. Not really as hard as you would first imagine.

Meantime: Getting the ramrod to move out of the stock. Keep in mind that the very slim fore stock on these guns can be brittle with age. That slim fore arm is one of the reasons for the multiple barrel bands we see on these guns. 1) Rest the gun in a gun cradle. If you don't have one, please buy one with rubber inserts. They're not expensive. 2) Get some twine. Tie three pieces, each between the barrel bands. Doesn't have to be tight. Just snug. 3) Get a pair of medium sized channel locks. Position the center hole of the channel locks (not the teeth) around the end of the ramrod. 4) Use a small ball peen or other 1-lb. hammer a lightly tap forward against the channel locks. The rod will usually slowly come out. If not, get back to me. LOL

Rick

Yes, please do continue public discussion - very helpful!

rickystl · Jul 18, 2024

Hi Bob

BARREL: Assuming the barrel bands are off the gun. There should be a barrel tang screw just in front of the trigger guard. It enters from the bottom of the stock and extends to the barrel tang. By the way, where the screw meets the tang is another good spot for Kroil oil to soak. Once this screw is removed, the barrel should lift off. Again, be careful of that thin fore arm. NOTE: If your fore arm of the stock is two pieces, the front part may have already come off. LOL. That's ok. Now the barrel itself: These long, Moroccan barrels are all smoothbores. The bores are usually in poor condition. Regardless, I would highly recommend sending the barrel off to Bobby Hoyt in PA. Bobby will remove the breech plug and inspect the plug to barrel thread integrity. Then he will he will inspect the bore condition. He will then give you his opinion if the bore condition will fix with just burnishing, or he will recommend a new steel liner. He has a burnishing method that just can't be duplicated at home and saves a ton of bore cleaning work that might still not result in a satisfactory, safe bore. The burnishing might cost about $100-125.00 for that barrel. A new liner might tip $300.00. But either way the barrel will come back to you ready to shoot. While there, have him plug the existing, likely over-sized vent hole - and NOT re-drill. A new vent hole later is easy.

Next Post: The Stock.

Rick

rickystl · Jul 18, 2024

Hi Bob

STOCK: Now that the lock, stock, and barrel are separated, and the ramrod removed, we can study the stock condition. Can you take a photo of the very end of the butt stock ? I'm guessing there are a couple of nail heads showing. At his stage of the dis-assembly, let me know your thoughts on the stock condition.

Rick

rickystl · Jul 18, 2024

By the way Bob: Welcome to the Forum !!!!!

Rick

relyon59 · Jul 18, 2024

WOW. You share a wealth of information and experience for those of us that have interest in the nuances of these firearms. Thank You so very much Rick! Again ... WOW.

More pics: Three of stock butt, as well as closeups of the breech and trigger guard areas of the stock. It looks like the barrel tang is attached with a nail, not a screw, and the lock cutout is deep enough that a screw shank should/would be able to be visible if a screw was used. Perhaps that's what was supposed to go in the hole in the trigger guard forward tang?

-Bob

Sam squanch · Jul 18, 2024

And be sure to wear work gloves if you can. My co worker was dismantling a 71 Mauser, got a splinter, and got a very nasty infection. Years of grime and dirt and who knows what else.

relyon59 · Jul 18, 2024

Other than the thumbscrew holding the flint, all the screws appear to be the same thread. I've taken a few out and turned them in others holes with no issues. Though I can determine it manually, it easier to ask:

What are the specs for the screw threads?

If possible, I want to purchase taps and dies to chase the existing threads and make new ones as needed.

-Bob

rickystl · Jul 18, 2024

OK. Thanks for the additional photos. These Moroccan guns were usually built as three separate functions. A lock maker, a barrel maker, and a stock and final assembly maker.

OK. The barrel tang is nailed on rather than a screw coming in from the bottom. I've seen this before. This may have been done as a replacement for a missing long screw. Or made this way because a long screw would not allow the lock to fit in the mortise. Note the builders of these guns also varied in their skill level. LOL I once viewed one where the lock itself was nailed to the stock. LOL The trigger guards are generally nailed to the stocks. It's all about using as few of threaded screws as possible in building the gun. Their builders didn't seem to have the level of thread making tools like Europeans. So, that nail in the breech plug tang will need to come out. Carefully. DARN. The trigger guard can be left in place for now. OK, I see one large nail in the middle of the butt stock. This, aided by the upper and lower iron reinforcements. The two rear wood pieces of the butt stock that differ in color are two separate pieces. If it now holds firm together, I would leave it alone for now.

But once the barrel is off, we now have the gun in it's primary three pieces and can make some judgements.

Rick

rickystl · Jul 18, 2024

By the way, all the locks screws are usually the same thread. But I can't recall what they were. Take one of the screws up to ACE Hardware and check. It's likely some type of metric thread.

Flint62Smoothie · Jul 18, 2024

Forget Kroil … as a DIY mix of 50:50 acetone to Auto Transmission Fluid (ATF) has been proven to be an exceptionally better, by a huge factor!

rickystl · Jul 18, 2024

Good to know Flint. Thanks.

relyon59 · Jul 18, 2024

In preparation to remove the barrel from the stock, I took pics of each band next to a fixed inch & cm ruler, only to realize the pics have parallax error and aren't as useful as I'd hoped. So I directly eyeballed each measurement and list them in the following table; the bands are 0.013" (0.25 mm) thick:

Barrel bands (ordered by butt end, muzzle end, and width, all in cm)

Breech 0.0
Band 1: 16.1 22.1 6.0
Band 2: 30.6 34.2 3.6
Band 3: 40.7 43.6 2.9
Band 4: 49.1 52.1 3.0
Band 5: 59.1 62.0 2.9
Band 6: 68.5 71.3 2.8
Band 7: 87.5 89.7 2.2
Band 8: 91.1 92.3 1.2
Band 9: 94.5 95.5 1.0 (band missing, but marks show it existed once)
Muzzle 101.4

The pic of the breech is attached, and shows a couple items of note:

1) I think the "nails" holding the barrel breech tang and the forward trigger guard are actually one piece of steel wire that is effectively a long rivet with shop heads formed on both ends. Seeing a faint vertical line inside the lock cutout, I wire brushed the area to discover what appears to be the aforementioned steel wire directly inline with the breech tang and forward trigger guard holes. I may attempt verify it if I can get it x-rayed (I really don't want to pay for it) or I may just grind off the barrel tang head to release the barrel. If I'm correct about it being a very long rivet, I definitely don't want to try to pry in out.

2) Though I don't have a small diameter bore gauge, I inserted progressively larger numbered drills through the touch hole until one wouldn't go. The hole is #39: 0.0995 in (2.5273 mm). I not certain what it should be, but 2.5 mm seems a bit large to me. I agree the hole should be filled (welded?) and redrilled.

I also disassembled the top of the frizzen, and can only guess how old the leather retainer and flint are.

Using the ATF/acetone penetrant Flint recommends to get the all the lock screws free so the lock can be disassembled is next.

-Bob

Rudyard · Jul 18, 2024

GREENSWLDE said:
Interesting to see th top of the barrel at the brech end. The stamp looks like a crown over V ?? O.D.

Yes it does I have some pics of the Bisley fire not sure how they now connect but think we do on them Regards Rudyard

Rudyard · Jul 18, 2024

relyon59 said:
Other than the thumbscrew holding the flint, all the screws appear to be the same thread. I've taken a few out and turned them in others holes with no issues. Though I can determine it manually, it easier to ask:

What are the specs for the screw threads?

If possible, I want to purchase taps and dies to chase the existing threads and make new ones as needed.

-Bob

Most all such 'Native' made screws the threads are from' eyeball made taps & dies ' no standards . No relation ship to WW or NC. I refer to such as ' OMF '&' BSA.' viz 'Outer Mongolian Fine '&' Bizantium Standard Acme 'in this little different to old European threads . If you get a stick to turn in a tapped hole then file out a steel rod to match it this once flatted & hardened will cut you a thread into a piece of steel drilled so you form a die. again make cutting faces then harden them all & off you go period thread . but so long as the originals will function use those . Buggering up originals is a deplorable Vanity . as I see it .However cheaply it came our way .We have them in trust.
Rudyard's view on such matters

Philip Chua · Jul 19, 2024

What a great thread! I have a very rough but rather nicely decorated Jezail type musket that I is from an auction. I placed a low bid and won the darn think. Probably a display piece and it had a more modern flintlock type lock with 1 bolt missing and one held in place rather crudely. I’ll post in a separate thread but this has been great!

Flint62Smoothie · Jul 19, 2024

Rudyard said:
Most all such 'Native' made screws the threads are from' eyeball made taps & dies ' no standards . No relation ship to WW or NC. I refer to such as 'OMF’ & 'BSA.' viz 'Outer Mongolian Fine' & ‘Bizantium Standard Acme’ 'in this little different to old European threads . I

That’s hilarious, and a great depiction!

Rudyard · Jul 19, 2024

rickystl said:
By the way, all the locks screws are usually the same thread. But I can't recall what they were. Take one of the screws up to ACE Hardware and check. It's likely some type of metric thread.

Dear Rick I wrote today about threads I don.t think Metric was used but since I wont use it ( common market rubbish) maybe they had an equivalent of Outer Mongolian Fine ? all I found with these locks where on the crude side of rough but the fine sand in many regions is hard on any mechanical items oil only turns into valve grinding compound unless the locks covered by rags . I learned to not bite on food since you crush sand just go close & back off ( Two days of sand storms taught me that ) Shades of "The Dust from the coal left its mark apon my soul , & Ide love to see the Ronda once again" , Tom Jones ? . The Rhonda Valley being a coal mining region of Wales .
Regards Rudyard

rickystl · Jul 19, 2024

Rudyard: LOL. The threads I've seen on some of these Moroccan locks look more like 16th Century than 19th Century. But I do remember finding some with still available metric threads. Seems hit or miss.

Bob: Save the flint and leather in a plastic bag for display. LOL OK. Moving right along. I don't recall ever seeing the breech plug tang to trigger guard attached done (we'll call it a rivet) in this manner. Hmmmm. I too would just cut off the shop head on the breech tang head and remove the barrel. That should also expose what is beneath that shop head. My guess is the equivalent of a long nail. Use a punch and a 1-lb. hammer a tap lightly and see if the nail moves downward and out at the trigger guard area. If it's what I think, the nail/rivet can be replaced later with a threaded screw. Once the barrel is removed, you can now remove the ramrod and study the stock while the lock is soaking.

Rick

Rudyard · Jul 19, 2024

Philip Chua said:
What a great thread! I have a very rough but rather nicely decorated Jezail type musket that I is from an auction. I placed a low bid and won the darn think. Probably a display piece and it had a more modern flintlock type lock with 1 bolt missing and one held in place rather crudely. I’ll post in a separate thread but this has been great!

Dear Phillip Do let us see it your definatly in the right place to post a pic /
Regards Rudyard

Anyone shooting N. African snaphaunces?

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