Kibler Fowler vs Trade Gun

Frontstuffer070 · Aug 6, 2024

Hello All,
Well my next adventure is going to be a smooth bore. I'm having a hard time choosing between a Kibler Fowler (20 ga) and a Trade gun kit from Clay Smith. I know the Kibler is gonna edge out a trade gun in cosmetics. But I'm after a do it all gun, ball, buck and ball, and shot. The fowlers are made to be just that and I can respect that. I know Jim said the 20 ga can fire a round ball. Are the trade guns better equipped to be the blunder buss of long guns? And I'm a hunter so that big ole trigger guard has its advantages too. If you had to choose between the two, what would be your choice and why?
Thanks for your thoughts in advance.

reddogge · Aug 6, 2024

When I built my NW trade gun I intended it to shoot round ball so the 20 ga works just fine. If I wanted it to shoot shot WELL I'd opt for a 16ga fowler. Longer barrel, and a bigger bore equals better patterns.

Smokey Plainsman · Aug 6, 2024

A trade gun is going to be a better round ball gun that a fowler.

Those guns were mainly used for, no surprise, hunting waterfowl. They are not generally used or meant for firing round ball. In Jim Kibler’s videos on his fowler he mentions that they are not really meant to shoot ball. That’s fowlers in general, not just his.

A proper trade gun or fusil de chasse would have actually probably more often than not used with ball over shot. Unlike fowling pieces, they would have been used for large game hunting and self defense using ball, though shot was certainly used with them.

It sounds like the Clay Smith gun would be right up your alley. I’ve got one of his painted trade guns that I plan on moving soon.

Pete G · Aug 6, 2024

A trade was designed to be built as cheap as possible. If you aren’t too worried about style, go with it. If you want something of a little better quality, go with the fowling piece. They both shoot round ball about the same.

Capt. Jas. · Aug 6, 2024

In modern terms I compare a dirt cheap bottom of the barrel single shot break action shotgun to say a Remington 870. Neither are high end guns but both will shoot shot or a slug and in my day they were both readily available. The 870 is more refined than the topper in looks and use as is the Kibler is certainly a refined piece for what it represents historically.
Trade guns historically were cheaply made and had probably the thinnest breeches of all the shotguns.

wiscoaster · Aug 6, 2024

Frontstuffer070 said:
.... If you had to choose between the two, what would be your choice and why?
....

Kibler also offers smoothbore options in the Colonial kit. I assembled the .58 cal smooth Colonial and it turned out quit well:
https://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/...l-58-caliber-smoothbore-maximum-bling.181896/
https://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/...bore-maximum-bling.181896/page-2#post-2644081

Frontstuffer070 · Aug 6, 2024

Yes historically they were the cheaper bottom of the barrel option. But that is not the case with the Trade gun kits available today. It seems to me they only look the part, but they have all the great quality parts of any of the others.

Smokey Plainsman · Aug 7, 2024

Kibler specifically says to not shoot round ball in the 16 gauge fowler as well. These guns are meant for hunting and use with loose shot.

Frontstuffer070 · Aug 7, 2024

After seeing the pics of the barrels side by side, you can see what he means. His 20 gauge has a nice thicker barrel on it though.

rich pierce · Aug 7, 2024

Frontstuffer070 said:
Hello All,
Well my next adventure is going to be a smooth bore. I'm having a hard time choosing between a Kibler Fowler (20 ga) and a Trade gun kit from Clay Smith. I know the Kibler is gonna edge out a trade gun in cosmetics. But I'm after a do it all gun, ball, buck and ball, and shot. The fowlers are made to be just that and I can respect that. I know Jim said the 20 ga can fire a round ball. Are the trade guns better equipped to be the blunder buss of long guns? And I'm a hunter so that big ole trigger guard has its advantages too. If you had to choose between the two, what would be your choice and why?
Thanks for your thoughts in advance.

Seems like you are thinking of a Northwest Trade Gun style with the large guard comment. Your choice should depends on preference and how confident you are to do the inletting on a kit that requires those skills, versus assembly and finishing of a Kibler kit.

Capt. Jas. · Aug 7, 2024

Smokey Plainsman said:
Kibler specifically says to not shoot round ball in the 16 gauge fowler as well. These guns are meant for hunting and use with loose shot.

Its a CYA.
I wouldn't hesitate to shoot ball out of his.16 ga guns.
The difference is I don't pretend they are a rifle and load it with a tight patch and ball. Historically the patched ball was to impart spin on a rifled bore.

Smokey Plainsman · Aug 7, 2024

Frontstuffer070 said:
After seeing the pics of the barrels side by side, you can see what he means. His 20 gauge has a nice thicker barrel on it though.

Yep, it’s a very thin walled barrel for a 16. This will make an excellent pointing birding piece but lots of barrel whip if used with ball.

longcruise · Aug 7, 2024

Smokey Plainsman said:
Kibler specifically says to not shoot round ball in the 16 gauge fowler as well. These guns are meant for hunting and use with loose shot.

I don't recall Kibler saying that at all. He mentions the additional recoil of a 16 loaded with ball. If he has stated specifically that it would be unsafe, I've missed seeing it.

My thoughts are that they are both capable of shot and ball so choose based on which one actually fits you physically and in terms of usage.

Dave Marsh · Aug 7, 2024

longcruise said:
I don't recall Kibler saying that at all. He mentions the additional recoil of a 16 loaded with ball. If he has stated specifically that it would be unsafe, I've missed seeing it.

My thoughts are that they are both capable of shot and ball so choose based on which one actually fits you physically and in terms of usage.

I believe that first Jim would not offer an unsafe gun with barrel whip problems and safety issues. If I recall he said the 16 gauge would probably not be as accurate as the 20-gauge with a roundball so if you want a round ball shooter probably the 20 gauge would be a better choice. I would not hesitate to use the 16 gauge with roundball. Not sure where the unsafe BS came from.

tenngun · Aug 7, 2024

How does the barrel know the differnce between 7/8 oz of shot and 7/8 Oz of ball
If you run a fiber wad down on top of your powder is it going to be ‘looser’ then even a PRB?

rich pierce · Aug 7, 2024

Regarding barrel whip: it’s real and one main reason why bench shooters using rifles choose heavy barrels. It isn’t a safety issue. But since we are talking about knuckle-balling round balls down range in a smoothbore, I don’t think barrel stiffness is the main variable impacting accuracy. Your experience may vary.

James Kibler · Aug 7, 2024

Yes, you could shoot a ball out of our fowler, I'd just suggest a 20 gauge would be a better choice. As to comparison with other offerings, all I can say is there really isn't any. Just being honest. Not just cosmetics... Better architecture (thinner web and appropriate forestock), better lock, overall better historical correctness, fit, finish, completeness etc.

Frontstuffer070 · Aug 7, 2024

Thanks for the reply Jim. I was mainly concerned about the versatility of them. I was shopping around today. Kit prices for Trade guns are right there with the maple stock Kibler fowler. So there is no savings there.

mikesto44 · Aug 8, 2024

I hunt with a trade gun. My barrel is 30 inches long
and I shoot shot and round ball out of it. For me in the swamps I hunt in. It is a much handier gun than a long barreled fowler. JMPO

oreclan · Aug 9, 2024

Smokey Plainsman said:
A trade gun is going to be a better round ball gun that a fowler.

Those guns were mainly used for, no surprise, hunting waterfowl. They are not generally used or meant for firing round ball. In Jim Kibler’s videos on his fowler he mentions that they are not really meant to shoot ball. That’s fowlers in general, not just his.

A proper trade gun or fusil de chasse would have actually probably more often than not used with ball over shot. Unlike fowling pieces, they would have been used for large game hunting and self defense using ball, though shot was certainly used with them.

It sounds like the Clay Smith gun would be right up your alley. I’ve got one of his painted trade guns that I plan on moving soon.

Actually in Jim Kibler 's video he said that of the two gauges he sells the 20 gauge is better suited for firing round ball because of the wall thickness.
In fact he noted that fowlers could and had been loaded with all sorts of objects (stones, smashed lead balls, etc.) depending upon how desperate the shooter was.

Kibler Fowler vs Trade Gun

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