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How Indian flintlocks are made

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In Belfast PA The Henry gun factory was located. There is a street close by named Filetown. Supposedly this is where the people who filed gun parts for the Henry company lived. I would tend to think that with a bunch of individuals filing out parts there had to be a bit of variance in the parts of Henry guns. Since everybody else, French &
British used the same method of manufacturing how could one be better than another. I don't believe that Indian guns are top notch, but then again how could French and British guns be better?
 
Relic shooter said:
I always told my customers to consider guns made in India as kit guns.

My usual work aside from custom building was repairing & restoring original guns from the flint & perc. era & Italian replicas.
fit & finish on locks of the India guns were similar to what I encountered with locks made by our colonial era backwoods
blacksmith/gunmakers produced.

In past years when India produced guns came into my ML store customers wanted me to drill the touch hole
& rework the locks geometry & springs to improve performance & trigger pull. Other than the above issues, India made unique replicas of English
& French designed guns looked & performed as well or better any other off the shelf replica guns & generally cost less..

As Dave Person states, they are not up to British or French ordnance standards, few of any of today's replicas if available can meet those standards.
Click to expand...

A kit that requires refinishing a little drilling a little welding … no biggie
 
bud in pa said:
In Belfast PA The Henry gun factory was located. There is a street close by named Filetown. Supposedly this is where the people who filed gun parts for the Henry company lived. I would tend to think that with a bunch of individuals filing out parts there had to be a bit of variance in the parts of Henry guns. Since everybody else, French &
British used the same method of manufacturing how could one be better than another. I don't believe that Indian guns are top notch, but then again how could French and British guns be better?
Click to expand...
Filetown is where Henry bookkeepers probably lived ... :)

And if we talk $$ you have to understand that British/French muskets net cost was way higher compare to India made guns of today. It took longer time to produce and this guns had to be accepted by military or trade companies.

Pig typically weigh between 200–280 lbs, with an average weight of 265 lbs, and sell for $2–$4 per lb, with an average price of $3.50 per lb.

$3.50x265=$927 per pig

$927x15 pigs=$13912 price of the musket in 1820

********Sure this calculations are wrong but I'm convinced that back in the days Brown Bess was unobtainable for equivalent of todays $700





cost-of-muskets.jpg
 
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leadhoarder said:
More authentic methods than a Kibler;)
Click to expand...
My first thought was 'looks like the images I've seen of a typical small scale 16th / 17th / 18th century weapons manufacturing. I initially took umbradge with the 'sweat shop' moniker. Then I recalled a podcast I heard recently. Your looking at the history of tool manufacturing for the human race for the last 10,000 +/- years. It wasn't until we learned to harness the power of fossil fuels to 'feed calories to the machines' vs the historical need of 'calories for warm bodies' that we were able to progress to the modern manufacturing plant.
I don't see the heartburn others have with these arms as long as the buyer goes into the purchase with their eyes open and realistic expectations.

As far as safety:
"each year an estimated 40,000 golfers seek emergency treatment due to injuries caused by errant golf balls and flying club heads."

"2.18 people are killed by vending machines in the US each year."

Over the last 10 years we have averaged 21.3 deaths by lightning. In 2016, the number was 40.

Wondering what the number of deaths from India made muskets, or even the number of severe or life threatening injuries?
 
bornintheussr said:
Filetown is where Henry bookkeepers probably lived ... :)

And if we talk $$ you have to understand that British/French muskets net cost was way higher compare to India made guns of today. It took longer time to produce and this guns had to be accepted by military or trade companies.

Pig typically weigh between 200–280 lbs, with an average weight of 265 lbs, and sell for $2–$4 per lb, with an average price of $3.50 per lb.

$3.50x265=$927 per pig

$927x15 pigs=$13912 price of the musket in 1820

********Sure this calculations are wrong but I'm convinced that back in the days Brown Bess was unobtainable for equivalent of todays $700





View attachment 340412
Click to expand...
During the westren fur trade a Hawken sold for about $25, Leman Trade gun $14, later 12.50. Trade fusils about $8.
Today the price of an Indian gun is in the price range of tge cheap guns of the old days, as a custom rifle is in one months pay, like a Hawken, and a El Cheapo about a weeks pay for a pro
A dollar a day was good wages cr 1830
 
Tumbledown said:
Tell me how different that is from a smith's shop 250 years ago, or even most today?
Click to expand...
Other than the different cultural practice of working on the floor rather than at a bench it does not differ at all. Were they rifling with the pre power period method the rifling bench would not at all differ from those used today for hand rifling. Baden Powell in the 19th century recorded identical rifling benches to those used by artisan gun makers in the USA at the same time.
 
bornintheussr said:
Veteran Arms got in stock alert and he stands behind his products
Talking about Blunderbusses there's virtually no substitute, Pedersoli/Armi Sport doesn't make them so if you want one it's ether Indian or build from the kit ... also Traditions sells gun they call blunderbuss that looks like some sort of musical instrument
Click to expand...
Is that the same company as Middlesex Trading Co. ?
 
Jappo said:
I read somewhere that these don't come with the flash hole? You have to drill your own. But I think Middlesex comes ready to shoot.
Click to expand...
Veteran Arms drills the flash hole, you might be thinking of Military Heritage.
Jappo said:
Is that the same company as Middlesex Trading Co. ?
Click to expand...
Nope, Veteran Arms is a different company.
 
Jappo said:
Is that the same company as Middlesex Trading Co. ?
Click to expand...
No, though I believe they import from many of the same sources.
I can tell you Loyalist arms gives as great a customer service as one could ask for, but I’ve heard complaints about Middlesex about very slow and unreliable service.
I have considered buying from them as they have some great offerings, I do love his web page
I have no personal complaint only read a lot of dissatisfied customers
 
See shower of sparks video in 'For Sale' of French 1801 Flintlock pistol, components made in India ??

I'm downsizing so recently posted for sale a repro French model 1801 pistol that I build several years ago from a box of
components I acquired in an box. Considering I owned an original of the same to compare with I felt it turned out pretty well.

I've had some negative stating comments from prospective buyers stating it's made in India but none of the parts including the
barrel have any India markings.
I did spend considerable time tuning the locks geometry & springs to get proper function & nice trigger pull
but have done the same lock tuning on any gun I've ever built.


As I mentioned on an earlier post on these India mfg guns, consider them as an inexpensive kit that requires the touch hole drilled & lock requires tuning by someone knowledgeable if your a serious shooter.
If tuning locks is beyond your skills take to someone to do it right for a few extra bucks.
Overall I think they are decent guns at a low price & often models not offered anywhere else.
Just one members opinion.
 
Smokey Plainsman said:
I heard stories of guys who would make friends with the crew chiefs and there are hidden compartments under the cargo bay in C-17s.

Dudes would roll downtown and stock up on muskets (and reportedly other, much more modern full-auto unmentionables) and would smuggle them back on base and have their buddies tuck them away for the flight back stateside.
Click to expand...
Guns should be no problem to bring back, motorcycles and small sportscars.MG's ,Mini-coopers were brought back to SAC bases ever time they rotated bases.
 
Reminds me of photos of the old days at Springfield. Early 1903 rifles suffered from poor heat treating because they went by the color of the metal but had trouble being consistent due to poor lighting.
Think it was any better when they made early flintlocks?
 
I would take objection to the notion that these indian gunsmiths are making muskets the same way how it was done in the 18th and 19th century Europe. Thats a huge misunderstanding of how arsenals in Saint-Étienne, Tulle, Potzdam or Charleville actualy worked. These were purpose built manufacturing establishments with top of the line equipment and skilled labor force of its time. The Process was strongly guarded with an intricate system of quality measurements and proofing. Muskets were the single most important thing to keep a government alive in those times, not a past time toy for western tourists. Please do read up on this topic before comparing it with a garage company of guys who have not cut it in the local motorcycle factory and had never seen a real musket since they cant afford one. And have the nerve to sell their "not officialy a gun" for 60~75% price of a real proofed firearm.

Edit > One of the issues with modern day collectors is that they get a very confused notion of how a NEW military firearm is supposed to look like, since they are mostly familiar with centuries old rusty abused put-togethers with replacement parts.
 

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Mle1822 said:
I would take objection to the notion that these indian gunsmiths are making muskets the same way how it was done in the 18th and 19th century Europe. Thats a huge misunderstanding of how arsenals in Saint-Étienne, Tulle, Potzdam or Charleville actualy worked. These were purpose built manufacturing establishments with top of the line equipment and skilled labor force of its time. The Process was strongly guarded with an intricate system of quality measurements and proofing. Muskets were the single most important thing to keep a government alive in those times, not a past time toy for western tourists. Please do read up on this topic before comparing it with a garage company of guys who have not cut it in the local motorcycle factory and had never seen a real musket since they cant afford one. And have the nerve to sell their "not officialy a gun" for 60~75% price of a real proofed firearm.

Edit > One of the issues with modern day collectors is that they get a very confused notion of how a NEW military firearm is supposed to look like, since they are mostly familiar with centuries old rusty abused put-togethers with replacement parts.
Click to expand...

I think there may be a misunderstanding Mle1122

When I made reference to manufacturing of today's India mfg guns I was comparing to how many of America's colonial era backwoods guns were made, not guns made in Europe.
I do however believe that the steel & barrels in India guns are better quality than many of the 'American frontier built' guns I've examined & restored.
The quality of our firearms grew by leaps & bounds as European gunmakers came here & shared their skills.
Most of my favorite original rifles & pistols that I still shoot today & still perform like new have English, Austrian & French heritage !
 

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