Is this Moroccan flintlock pistol authentic?

waarp8nt said:

I'm no expert, I too like to collect pre 98's, but to me the dead give away is the lock sets on top of the wood. I would say its a souvenir.

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Narfrederick said:

Hello,

I've got another head scratcher for you guys. I had posted another thread about a mystery 18th-Century flintlock rifle and now I have another question about another gun in my collection.

So, I am not an expert on guns but I collect 18th-Century artifacts. This was purchased several years ago and I was told it was Moroccan. I had taken this gun to an auction house (along with the other in my possession) and was told this pistol was a souvenir from the Caribbean(?) from the 1940s. I will not argue with an expert's opinion but I asked why he had such a specific timeframe and the only thing that convinced him that this was a fake was the fact that it had never been shot, the frizzen (I think) had no scratches therefore it had never been fired and people from the 18th-Century didn't decorate with guns.

When I inspected the gun I had noticed the screws and rivets I wondered how a souvenir could be faked so precisely from the 1940s.

I don't know, maybe I'm in denial. What do you think? Does this really look like a souvenir or reproduction?

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TFoley said:

I'd be amazed if it was older than 1970. Only Stevie Wonder could be fooled by this item.

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tenngun said:

It looks good in photos, and I don’t know enough about them to pick out any wrong details.
A caveat I would add is between cr 1870 and the 1930 there was a big market in fake antique guns produced in France Spain, Portugal and Morocco

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Loyalist Dave said:

I'm not that certain. It's one of the best "wall hangers" that I've seen if it's just a wall hanger

Note the "wedding bands" where the barrel transitions from octagon to round.
Note the grooves on the face of the frizzen
Note the fit of the sideplate opposite the lock, and the fact there is a plate and not brass washers under the bolts

These details are completely unneeded in a "wall hanger" which does not function and is not intended to function. WHY go to all that trouble when a tourist will buy something taking a lot less effort to complete?

I think perhaps the parts came off of a functional pistol, but the wooden part was redone. Note how the flat faced lock is "proud" but the trigger guard and side plate are a tad too deep BUT they do fit the wood. Further note how the lock retaining screws and the cock screw are not buggered in any manner, but the screw forward of the bow in the trigger guard is obviously quite old.

So I think somebody took an almost complete set of pistol parts, and restocked them into your pistol, replacing the missing lock bolts and such. Then the wood finish was applied all over the piece, to color the wood and "antique" the look of the piece. The ramrod was omitted perhaps because the interior channel was beyond the restocker's ability. Have you checked to see if the ramrod hole into the stock is the right size and depth?

I'd like to see photos of the touch hole as well as the interior of the barrel.

LD

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rickystl said:

Hello again.

I'm going to respectively disagree with some of the other posts above. IMHO this pistol is the genuine article, not a tourist copy.

This is what Eastern gun collectors commonly refer to as an Ottoman Kubur (horse) pistol. They were often carried in pairs. Moroccan ? Perhaps. But more likely made in one of the many small shops in the Balkans. The owner(s) of the pistol could have resided most anywhere in the Region. These pistols were very popular throughout much of the Ottoman Empire. They were made by the thousands. Usually with barrels, locks, and hardware imported from Europe (especially Italy), and assembled in the local shops. Their primary use period runs from the late 18th all the way to about the 3rd Quarter of the 19th Century. Hard to believe but flintlocks were still in common use in the Region even this late. The export market for these pistol parts must have been enormous. LOL That's the likely reason there are so many original examples still available today. The lock on your pistol looks like one of the typical European export locks to the Region. The narrow piece of the long front barrel band made to look like a ramrod is just a styling exercise. They were usually made with no ramrod facility on the stock. The locals preferred to load their pistols with a separate rod hanging from a throng on the neck called a Suma (there are other names also). These pistols turn up from plain to highly decorated and all points in between. Unless made as a pair, there are no two that look exactly alike. The serrations on the frizzen are common on these locks exported to the Region. The origins coming from Spanish locks. Looking at the muzzle and pan to vent hole relationship, to me, is more evidence of it being an original piece. By the way, after a few decades studying these Eastern market guns, I've noticed, even on the best examples, that the lock inletting to the stocks are somewhat mediocre, but OK. Not as tight as the European gun builders. Always thought this strange. With all the exterior decorative work they could accomplish, their lock inletting was just a bit sub-par.

There are indeed copies of these pistols that were made for the tourist market. The copies made from about the 1960's and earlier are usually made better. Often with a combination original parts and new parts. The copies made around the 1970's and later are obvious wall hangers. Anyway, hope this helps. Nice pistol.

Rick

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rickystl said:

Hello again.

I'm going to respectively disagree with some of the other posts above. IMHO this pistol is the genuine article, not a tourist copy.

This is what Eastern gun collectors commonly refer to as an Ottoman Kubur (horse) pistol. They were often carried in pairs. Moroccan ? Perhaps. But more likely made in one of the many small shops in the Balkans. The owner(s) of the pistol could have resided most anywhere in the Region. These pistols were very popular throughout much of the Ottoman Empire. They were made by the thousands. Usually with barrels, locks, and hardware imported from Europe (especially Italy), and assembled in the local shops. Their primary use period runs from the late 18th all the way to about the 3rd Quarter of the 19th Century. Hard to believe but flintlocks were still in common use in the Region even this late. The export market for these pistol parts must have been enormous. LOL That's the likely reason there are so many original examples still available today. The lock on your pistol looks like one of the typical European export locks to the Region. The narrow piece of the long front barrel band made to look like a ramrod is just a styling exercise. They were usually made with no ramrod facility on the stock. The locals preferred to load their pistols with a separate rod hanging from a throng on the neck called a Suma (there are other names also). These pistols turn up from plain to highly decorated and all points in between. Unless made as a pair, there are no two that look exactly alike. The serrations on the frizzen are common on these locks exported to the Region. The origins coming from Spanish locks. Looking at the muzzle and pan to vent hole relationship, to me, is more evidence of it being an original piece. By the way, after a few decades studying these Eastern market guns, I've noticed, even on the best examples, that the lock inletting to the stocks are somewhat mediocre, but OK. Not as tight as the European gun builders. Always thought this strange. With all the exterior decorative work they could accomplish, their lock inletting was just a bit sub-par.

There are indeed copies of these pistols that were made for the tourist market. The copies made from about the 1960's and earlier are usually made better. Often with a combination original parts and new parts. The copies made around the 1970's and later are obvious wall hangers. Anyway, hope this helps. Nice pistol.

Rick

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