My advice to India gun buyers

I have the utmost respect for the craftsman that hand make period correct replicas. Some of the works of art I have seen here and elsewhere never cease to amaze me. I wish I had the patience, time, and talent; I don’t. I also don’t attend rendezvous or events mostly because none are near me and I work a government job that does not give me weekends off.

I do shoot a lot and go on solo treks with my muzzle loaders. I also really like to work on all manner of firearms. I was fortunate that my job sent me to numerous armorer schools so I am no stranger to fixing broken guns.

My advice goes like this. India guns are often poorly assemble parts kits made by people who probably don’t know how to shoot them. So if you have high expectations and want to shoot them a lot like I do be prepared to disassemble them day one and do some essential work.

My first example:



This pistol was purchased from Access Heritage for $399. I had to drill the touch hole, completely strip the poo colored sprayed on finish, stain the teak brown with Fieblings leather dye, and put four coats of tung oil on the wood. I also browned the lock and made a new ram rod out of oak. I also had to fix the ram rod channel because it was too narrow in a few spots. All up I spent 10 hours working on it before I fired one shot. Fortunately I have ended up with a reliable accurate handgun. I’m well aware that it could have went the other way.

Second example:



This musket is another purchase from Access Heritage and it cost me $699. It too came with the same nasty sprayed on finish that I removed. The wood was also dyed brown and finished with tung oil. I also browned the lock and had to rub back all the over polished metal with 1000 grit wet dry paper. I added sling swivels from Track of the Wolf and a sling that I made myself. All up I probably have 20 hours into improving it.

Both these guns spark well and shoot point of aim every shot. I have had amazing luck shooting with tied round balls out of both and fortunately for me they are both the same caliber (62).

My balls:


Both these guns were heavily inspected when they arrived. They sparked well, had decent trigger pulls, and had properly indexed sights. If any of these things were bad I would have sent them back immediately. I’m a firm believer in not polishing a turd. So the only real work I had to do was cosmetic. My point is, if you have some skill and more time than money an India can make sense. If you buy one of these with unrealistic expectations you’re going to end up with an ugly wall hanger.

Good opinion of such things. Seems to parallel the opinion of others when it comes to Indian Guns on here.

My brother bought an India made 1795 musket. He also made the same cosmetic changes and he is very happy with it.

When I read the posts from top builders on here and they say dont, waste your time I tend to believe them....

ArmorerRoy said:

If you buy one of these with unrealistic expectations you’re going to end up with an ugly wall hanger.

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Well said, most like to compare with a hand built gun at 3+ times the price. It isn't a fair comparison.

Something that throws off the discussion, some use these for re-enactments, and never fire a projectile from them. I've inspected enough of these imports, you will never see me behind the trigger on one.

waksupi said:

Something that throws off the discussion, some use these for re-enactments, and never fire a projectile from them. I've inspected enough of these imports, you will never see me behind the trigger on one.

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Those imported into Europe pass the proof tests including the British and German government proofs which are the most severe.

Otherwise you get what you pay for. Want better wood, higher finish, finer made metal work and lock parts? They can do it but you would pay the extra prices into Pedersoli region for the extra labour time and materials. Indian skilled workers do expect to get decently paid you know or they take their skills elsewhere. Jaipur and Udiapur are engineering cities who value skilled staff and have done for long before the United States ever existed. India can turn out Mach2 fighter aircraft, main battle tanks, aircraft carriers and space rockets so engineering better muzzleloaders is well within the Indian skill set but they provide for their own niche in the market.

RAEDWALD said:

Those imported into Europe pass the proof tests including the British and German government proofs which are the most severe.

Otherwise you get what you pay for. Want better wood, higher finish, finer made metal work and lock parts? They can do it but you would pay the extra prices into Pedersoli region for the extra labour time and materials. Indian skilled workers do expect to get decently paid you know or they take their skills elsewhere. Jaipur and Udiapur are engineering cities who value skilled staff and have done for long before the United States ever existed. India can turn out Mach2 fighter aircraft, main battle tanks, aircraft carriers and space rockets so engineering better muzzleloaders is well within the Indian skill set but they provide for their own niche in the market.

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Not all of them pass
https://capandball.com/how-the-indian-made-flintlock-pistol-blew-up-upon-c-i-p-proofing/

ArmorerRoy said:

Both these guns spark well and shoot point of aim every shot. I have had amazing luck shooting with tied round balls out of both and fortunately for me they are both the same caliber (62).

My balls:
View attachment 328289

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I am curious about your ammunition treatment. How did you come up with these? Do you remove the twine on the patching material once the ball and patch are first placed into the muzzle, or do you shoot them as-is?

Do you find that the patch flies off when they are fired? Do you ever get skewed flight paths from a patch remaining on or remaining on longer than it should?

LD

Frontier's said:

Not all of them pass
https://capandball.com/how-the-indian-made-flintlock-pistol-blew-up-upon-c-i-p-proofing/

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And this is why they have proof testing. The system worked. Not all fine hand made American custom firearms pass a proof test when exported to a nation with proofing laws. Not many fail but it does happen. Again, this is why they have proof testing.

Loyalist Dave said:

I am curious about your ammunition treatment. How did you come up with these? Do you remove the twine on the patching material once the ball and patch are first placed into the muzzle, or do you shoot them as-is?

Do you find that the patch flies off when they are fired? Do you ever get skewed flight paths from a patch remaining on or remaining on longer than it should?

LD

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Dave,
I found out about sewn on patches and also leather wrapped balls so I thought wrapping and tying made sense. I dip the wrapped balls in olive oil beeswax mix and store them in a tin in my shooting bag. I load them with the tie up and I'm pretty sure the string breaks when fully seated. At 100 yards they are accurate with no crazy fliers. The recovered patches look the same as untied patches and I have never found the string.

Leather wrapped balls.

I don’t have the patience to make these.

Frontier's said:

Not all of them pass
https://capandball.com/how-the-indian-made-flintlock-pistol-blew-up-upon-c-i-p-proofing/

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And … that’s the 1st one that we have direct knowledge of where the failure is indeed attributable to the barrel integrity itself.

Let’s put it in perspective, as when you come down to it, MORE Douglas Barrel Company black powder barrels have blown up …

Flint62Smoothie said:

And … that’s the 1st one that we have direct knowledge of where the failure is indeed attributable to the barrel integrity itself.

Let’s put it in perspective, as when you come down to it, MORE Douglas Barrel Company black powder barrels have blown up …

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More than what? Your response is like a monumental example of a class A fallacy on display....Wish I could delete my comment now that I see the link to proofing Indian made barrels.

ArmorerRoy said:

I have the utmost respect for the craftsman that hand make period correct replicas. Some of the works of art I have seen here and elsewhere never cease to amaze me. I wish I had the patience, time, and talent; I don’t. I also don’t attend rendezvous or events mostly because none are near me and I work a government job that does not give me weekends off.

I do shoot a lot and go on solo treks with my muzzle loaders. I also really like to work on all manner of firearms. I was fortunate that my job sent me to numerous armorer schools so I am no stranger to fixing broken guns.

My advice goes like this. India guns are often poorly assemble parts kits made by people who probably don’t know how to shoot them. So if you have high expectations and want to shoot them a lot like I do be prepared to disassemble them day one and do some essential work.

My first example:
View attachment 328283


This pistol was purchased from Access Heritage for $399. I had to drill the touch hole, completely strip the poo colored sprayed on finish, stain the teak brown with Fieblings leather dye, and put four coats of tung oil on the wood. I also browned the lock and made a new ram rod out of oak. I also had to fix the ram rod channel because it was too narrow in a few spots. All up I spent 10 hours working on it before I fired one shot. Fortunately I have ended up with a reliable accurate handgun. I’m well aware that it could have went the other way.

Second example:

View attachment 328284

This musket is another purchase from Access Heritage and it cost me $699. It too came with the same nasty sprayed on finish that I removed. The wood was also dyed brown and finished with tung oil. I also browned the lock and had to rub back all the over polished metal with 1000 grit wet dry paper. I added sling swivels from Track of the Wolf and a sling that I made myself. All up I probably have 20 hours into improving it.

Both these guns spark well and shoot point of aim every shot. I have had amazing luck shooting with tied round balls out of both and fortunately for me they are both the same caliber (62).

My balls:
View attachment 328289

Both these guns were heavily inspected when they arrived. They sparked well, had decent trigger pulls, and had properly indexed sights. If any of these things were bad I would have sent them back immediately. I’m a firm believer in not polishing a turd. So the only real work I had to do was cosmetic. My point is, if you have some skill and more time than money an India can make sense. If you buy one of these with unrealistic expectations you’re going to end up with an ugly wall hanger.

Click to expand...

Agree and disagree, they’re advertised as finished, not as kits. While agree with your interpretation, most people will see them as finished and have an OMG moment when it arrives, or some will fall in love with their purchase.


It’s a shame these are sold in a finished condition (stock stained and steel polished).

Indian gunmakers sure could save a lot by sending these over as parts sets to be sold, the cost savings might even afford better stock material.

Nevertheless great work ! And great advice.

Mina said:

More than what? Your response is like a monumental example of a class A fallacy on display.

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Dont go down this rabbit hole, there will be another one that blows up eventually.

I like my ugly nasty wall hanger of a 9" Sea Service pistol from the same place that I did some work on !!!! according to some accounts.....junk that is likely not to work, blow up, etc.

out of all the things that I have, this one I especially like !!!!

camo

ArmorerRoy said:

I have the utmost respect for the craftsman that hand make period correct replicas. Some of the works of art I have seen here and elsewhere never cease to amaze me. I wish I had the patience, time, and talent; I don’t. I also don’t attend rendezvous or events mostly because none are near me and I work a government job that does not give me weekends off.

I do shoot a lot and go on solo treks with my muzzle loaders. I also really like to work on all manner of firearms. I was fortunate that my job sent me to numerous armorer schools so I am no stranger to fixing broken guns.

My advice goes like this. India guns are often poorly assemble parts kits made by people who probably don’t know how to shoot them. So if you have high expectations and want to shoot them a lot like I do be prepared to disassemble them day one and do some essential work.

My first example:
View attachment 328283


This pistol was purchased from Access Heritage for $399. I had to drill the touch hole, completely strip the poo colored sprayed on finish, stain the teak brown with Fieblings leather dye, and put four coats of tung oil on the wood. I also browned the lock and made a new ram rod out of oak. I also had to fix the ram rod channel because it was too narrow in a few spots. All up I spent 10 hours working on it before I fired one shot. Fortunately I have ended up with a reliable accurate handgun. I’m well aware that it could have went the other way.

Second example:

View attachment 328284

This musket is another purchase from Access Heritage and it cost me $699. It too came with the same nasty sprayed on finish that I removed. The wood was also dyed brown and finished with tung oil. I also browned the lock and had to rub back all the over polished metal with 1000 grit wet dry paper. I added sling swivels from Track of the Wolf and a sling that I made myself. All up I probably have 20 hours into improving it.

Both these guns spark well and shoot point of aim every shot. I have had amazing luck shooting with tied round balls out of both and fortunately for me they are both the same caliber (62).

My balls:
View attachment 328289

Both these guns were heavily inspected when they arrived. They sparked well, had decent trigger pulls, and had properly indexed sights. If any of these things were bad I would have sent them back immediately. I’m a firm believer in not polishing a turd. So the only real work I had to do was cosmetic. My point is, if you have some skill and more time than money an India can make sense. If you buy one of these with unrealistic expectations you’re going to end up with an ugly wall hanger.

Click to expand...

Thank you for posting this interesting experience! Very handsome, great photos! Also, doing projects on guns can be a lot of fun, and fulfilling, as you've shown! Love that pistol!

Frontier's said:

Not all of them pass
https://capandball.com/how-the-indian-made-flintlock-pistol-blew-up-upon-c-i-p-proofing/

Click to expand...

True, but the photos we've seen here show shops using 19th C. workmanship & technology, not the space rocket projects!

That blown pistol barrel looks rusty; did someone not seat the ball all the way down, which will act as an obstruction upon firing. Plus if they kept it that rusty, one questions their maintenance standards.

FlinterNick said:

Agree and disagree, they’re advertised as finished, not as kits. While agree with your interpretation, most people will see them as finished and have an OMG moment when it arrives, or some will fall in love with their purchase.


It’s a shame these are sold in a finished condition (stock stained and steel polished).

Indian gunmakers sure could save a lot by sending these over as parts sets to be sold, the cost savings might even afford better stock material.

Nevertheless great work ! And great advice.

Click to expand...

Sending parts kits would cause problems; the parts, not having been "settled" into place with connecting parts, would be a manure shoot as to final fit. You'd find screw holes and mating surfaces all over the place. I trust the owners of Veteran Arms, M/H, Middle-sex, whoever, to work with the factories, receive the items, inspect them, etc., before shipping out to our anxious hands!