Kibler Brown Bess?

brushblind said:

I thought he was going to do a Hawken next?

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I guess it all depends on how far his development has progressed. The fowler was to be before the woodsrunner.

brushblind said:

I thought he was going to do a Hawken next?

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I guess it all depends on how far his development has progressed. The fowler was to be before the woodsrunner.

FlinterNick said:

If you mean by a neutral musket, i think that’s ok. However, there are no real COS patterns to follow, they’re all so very different, i woudln’t. COS muskets are often miss understood by reinactors too, its almost become an adnasuem terminology for describing an Italian, Japanese or Indian made musket so that they can say its different.

Many of the so called COS muskets I’ve seen in museums look like they were made in a weekend, real junk.

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Yes, I guess I meant a more neutral pattern than reproducing an actual year pattern.

Not being a reenactor I didn’t know the CoS term has been generally applied to poor foreign copies of Besses. My thought was that CoS muskets were really the first long guns commissioned by either the states or the US. It could be fitting to take the best features of several good existing examples and develop a quality representation.

I suspect most of the originals were built quickly as there was push to quickly arm militias and the Continental Line. Plus, as with any military arm in combat and in harsh conditions. they were not given the best care

My poor word choice, but my thought was that if Mr Kibler put together a kit of the musket he would have built under a commission from a state, using his own design, rather than directly copy a 17xx pattern, that could be an interesting and well built flintlock.

This thread is an example of why there are so few good reproduction Bess's available. Same for the Charlesville.

Smokey Plainsman said:

Jim Kibler asked the question on if he should consider offering a Brown Bess musket kit in the future. I am making this poll to further the discussion. What are your thoughts on the matter? Would you like seeing one? And if so, which model of Bess would you be interested in?

-Smokey

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I think everyone would like to see one; would be interesting to see, what the cost would be, etc. There may be water balloon fights between battalions of re-enactors fighting over "Which Model To Re-Produce"!!

I'd rather see a Northwest Trade gun & a genuine Hawken.

Gum Slough Muzzleloader said:

It would be really cool if Jim offered a Brown Bess kit.
However if he does I hope it’s after he makes the Hawken kit he has mentioned!

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Yepper, we agree you n me!

The 250th anniversary of “ the **** heard round the world” is in April of 2025. That’s a few short months away. I hope Jim Kibler puts out an accurate Brown Bess kit.

“Shot heard round the world”
Don’t know what happened above.

Here is a pattern that would be nice

https://www.forgottenweapons.com/from-the-american-revolution-short-land-pattern-brown-bess/

springfield art said:

I think everyone would like to see one; would be interesting to see, what the cost would be, etc. There may be water balloon fights between battalions of re-enactors fighting over "Which Model To Re-Produce"!!

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It will be whatever model Jim thinks will make a profit, not bizarre officers model it what have you.

What I see as the problem that @James Kibler would have with a military musket for reenactors of the AWI and the F&I, is that it won't be the specific model that some units will want. The musket will be made of fine parts and will be an easy to assemble kit that will finish up into a musket that no doubt should be acceptable for most units. It will be too nice for many of the militias. It won't be the model issued only to British regulars. It will have too many later features that weren't available for the F&I muskets. It won't have the early features of the Long Land muskets used by militias during the F&I. And then let's not get into the various French muskets or the Dutch and German muskets. @springfield art has it correct. There will be too many squabbles among the reenactors for Jim to feel he's pursuing the right model to produce.

Grenadier1758 said:

What I see as the problem that @James Kibler would have with a military musket for reenactors of the AWI and the F&I, is that it won't be the specific model that some units will want. The musket will be made of fine parts and will be an easy to assemble kit that will finish up into a musket that no doubt should be acceptable for most units. It will be too nice for many of the militias. It won't be the model issued only to British regulars. It will have too many later features that weren't available for the F&I muskets. It won't have the early features of the Long Land muskets used by militias during the F&I. And then let's not get into the various French muskets or the Dutch and German muskets. @springfield art has it correct. There will be too many squabbles among the reenactors for Jim to feel he's pursuing the right model to produce.

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Your sense makes muchness.

"What I see as the problem that @James Kibler would have with a military musket for reenactors of the AWI and the F&I, is that it won't be the specific model that some units will want. The musket will be made of fine parts and will be an easy to assemble kit that will finish up into a musket that no doubt should be acceptable for most units. It will be too nice for many of the militias. It won't be the model issued only to British regulars. It will have too many later features that weren't available for the F&I muskets. It won't have the early features of the Long Land muskets used by militias during the F&I. And then let's not get into the various French muskets or the Dutch and German muskets. @springfield art has it correct. There will be too many squabbles among the reenactors for Jim to feel he's pursuing the right model to produce."

Many many many reenactors are using muskets that are either totally wrong for their time period or are poor copies of a particular model and, by and large, folks are fine with this. Yes, some have custom made Besses, but there are a whole lot of Pedersolis and India-made guns in use. A lot. Anything Jim Kibler comes up with will be snapped up and will be an improvement over what is currently used by so very many reenactors.

While I take care of my Loyalist Arms Long Land Pattern King's Musket, I see a lot of the issues pointed out by @BEP. I have also seen how many reenactors take care of their muskets and I would hate to think about how some reenactors would take care of a musket of the quality of a Kibler musket. Although for the most part, we reenactors have to use the incorrect muskets and find them acceptable because the affordable correct muskets simply don't exist.

Of course, even if we are so loose with our acceptance of mixed era muskets, that won't stop some reenactors from being so rude with their assessments of the muskets being offered.

I would like a 1742 pattern, but will buy any one he chooses to make.

I hunt with my flintlocks, the Brown Bess is kind-of-useless for hunting. It's too heavy (9-10lbs), too long except for the short short version, has an odd caliber (usually .73 to .79cal.) and has no front sight or bead. Now, if you made the shorter version (55in. length, 39in. barrel), lighter (8lbs), useful bore (12ga. or.73cal.) and added a front bead, I would definitely buy one.
Now you could make a reasonable compromise or make 2 versions, one for hunting and one for re-enacting. Just saying ... you would probably sell quite a few!

A Bess has a front sight. You can get used to the weight of a Bess.

Leatherbark said:

A Bess has a front sight. You can get used to the weight of a Bess.

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I always amazes me to hear people complain about the weight of a Bess, then say they want a Hawken. It’s a real eye roller.

A military Bess will weigh about 9 to 11 pounds. A Hawken Plains Rifle by Jake and Sam Hawken or John Gemmer would weigh 10 to 12 pounds, and a few might go a bit heavier. Modern "Hawken Marketing Rifles" will weigh less as they are manufactured to meet the demands of modern hunters used to lighter weight rifles.