Kaido Ojamaa's 255 conical and the ROA

I'm confused, are you weighing black powder/ substitutes or measuring it. It should be the later with either. Weigh the bullets/ball, measure the diameter but always volumetric-ally measure black powder or substitutes.

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Black Powder or its substitutes have such a wide variety of density that volume measure is erratic between powders as well.

Once you know what works, then volume for a given powder works. There is no such thing as a volume weight. Volume is a convenience.

Equally the measures are not calibrated and when your density varies so much, there is no such thing as across the board equals. Grain sizes range all over the map despite 3 of the 4 being 3F. Settling is hard to deal with and Pyro RS settles a lot. 777 3F is 4F in grain size and maybe smaller. Pyro RS (2F) and GOEX are about the same

Volume Measure Set at 50:

Weight: per 50:
Pyro RS (2F): 30.5
Pyro P: (3F) 31.7
GOEX (3F): 36
777 3F: 37.2

Smokerr said:

Black Powder or its substitutes have such a wide variety of density that volume measure is erratic between powders as well.

Once you know what works, then volume for a given powder works. There is no such thing as a volume weight. Volume is a convenience.

Equally the measures are not calibrated and when your density varies so much, there is no such thing as across the board equals. Grain sizes range all over the map despite 3 of the 4 being 3F. Settling is hard to deal with and Pyro RS settles a lot. 777 3F is 4F in grain size and maybe smaller. Pyro RS (2F) and GOEX are about the same

Volume Measure Set at 50:

Weight: per 50:
Pyro RS (2F): 30.5
Pyro P: (3F) 31.7
GOEX (3F): 36
777 3F: 37.2

Click to expand...

The free powder measure with the black powder pistol kit back in something like 2016 was marked much higher than what it weighed. I don’t use it. I much prefer the types with a small funnel, and these tend to be rifle measures, which to me is great as I then only need one. Apparently a blessing in disguise, I broke my original powder measure given to me by my father. It had 10 grn gradients so eyeing 5 grns was easy. My new one is marked in 5 grain increments so now it’s easy to eyeball 2.5 grn increments so I’ll be better able to dial in my more accurate loads, especially with my revolvers where small bits add up to bigger things.

I’m at a loss at how your T7 charge weighs even close to Goex powder. It’s light as a feather where black powders and substitutes are concerned.

rodwha said:

The free powder measure with the black powder pistol kit back in something like 2016 was marked much higher than what it weighed. I don’t use it. I much prefer the types with a small funnel, and these tend to be rifle measures, which to me is great as I then only need one. Apparently a blessing in disguise, I broke my original powder measure given to me by my father. It had 10 grn gradients so eyeing 5 grns was easy. My new one is marked in 5 grain increments so now it’s easy to eyeball 2.5 grn increments so I’ll be better able to dial in my more accurate loads, especially with my revolvers where small bits add up to bigger things.

I’m at a loss at how your T7 charge weighs even close to Goex powder. It’s light as a feather where black powders and substitutes are concerned.

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The main thing I do is figure out what volume load works in my individual arm of a specific brand of BP and stick with that regardless of what it weighs or what some other measure says it is which is exactly what our ancestors did with their various powder measures of all types.

Smokerr said:

Black Powder or its substitutes have such a wide variety of density that volume measure is erratic between powders as well.

Once you know what works, then volume for a given powder works. There is no such thing as a volume weight. Volume is a convenience.

Equally the measures are not calibrated and when your density varies so much, there is no such thing as across the board equals. Grain sizes range all over the map despite 3 of the 4 being 3F. Settling is hard to deal with and Pyro RS settles a lot. 777 3F is 4F in grain size and maybe smaller. Pyro RS (2F) and GOEX are about the same

Volume Measure Set at 50:

Weight: per 50:
Pyro RS (2F): 30.5
Pyro P: (3F) 31.7
GOEX (3F): 36
777 3F: 37.2

Click to expand...

Awesome observations Smokerr!…and accurate. Using your example and GOEX 3 F as the standard your powder measure is should read 36 not 50 but most mesure

Smokerr said:

Black Powder or its substitutes have such a wide variety of density that volume measure is erratic between powders as well.

Once you know what works, then volume for a given powder works. There is no such thing as a volume weight. Volume is a convenience.

Equally the measures are not calibrated and when your density varies so much, there is no such thing as across the board equals. Grain sizes range all over the map despite 3 of the 4 being 3F. Settling is hard to deal with and Pyro RS settles a lot. 777 3F is 4F in grain size and maybe smaller. Pyro RS (2F) and GOEX are about the same

Volume Measure Set at 50:

Weight: per 50:
Pyro RS (2F): 30.5
Pyro P: (3F) 31.7
GOEX (3F): 36
777 3F: 37.2

Click to expand...

Completely accurate! This how to explain how some folks manage to stuff 45 grains of anything with a Kaido on a ROA without using an hydraulic press! In you example your powder measure is dispensing literary 72% of what is supposed to. That would be 28.8 grains out of a “40 grain” charge..Imagine that!!!!

I can see if a measure throws different charges. I scale check mine with FFG or for the revolvers, FFFG and they throw the right weights. 41 gr of Swiss FFFG is the max so the ball is just below the cylinder front of the Ruger. It would work with 777 but it would need compressed and give wild variations.

M. De Land said:

The main thing I do is figure out what volume load works in my individual arm of a specific brand of BP and stick with that regardless of what it weighs or what some other measure says it is which is exactly what our ancestors did with their various powder measures of all types.

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I only weighed my charges because I had sent you several projectiles to test along with identical powder charges as it’s the only way we could duplicate things exactly. I just worked in 5 grn increments finding what shot more accurately in both and will be designing a universal bullet to fill in most of the excess chamber space. That powder measure threw 3 grns heavier than the stating markings. No big deal. My new one happens to throw precisely the weight of 3F Olde Eynsford, and I must say I do like that. But even better is that I can try in increments of 2.5 grns to better dial in their preferred charges.

thanks for all the replies so far. given me some things to try out. I'm going to order some powder, but I'm torn between triple seven and swiss fff. seems like they both have good reviews. correct me if I am wrong but triple 7 is cleaner, but swiss is less corrosive. But which is more powerful. maybe I am totally wrong. whats your opinions for what would be the better powder for me and hunting.

I will be casting some new conicals today with the pure lead. if i get super mixed sizes then I'm gonna check to see if the mold was cut wrong. as for yall wondering how i managed to load a 50 g load I believe its due to how compressible pyrodex rs is. I can fill the chamber completely full and ram it a good ways down with a round ball. The conical was tough to load. perhaps the past owner had the cylinder drilled out deeper. I don't know. just know I can load 50 g of powder with ease using a round ball.

Dundee said:

thanks for all the replies so far. given me some things to try out. I'm going to order some powder, but I'm torn between triple seven and swiss fff. seems like they both have good reviews. correct me if I am wrong but triple 7 is cleaner, but swiss is less corrosive. But which is more powerful. maybe I am totally wrong. whats your opinions for what would be the better powder for me and hunting.

I will be casting some new conicals today with the pure lead. if i get super mixed sizes then I'm gonna check to see if the mold was cut wrong. as for yall wondering how i managed to load a 50 g load I believe its due to how compressible pyrodex rs is. I can fill the chamber completely full and ram it a good ways down with a round ball. The conical was tough to load. perhaps the past owner had the cylinder drilled out deeper. I don't know. just know I can load 50 g of powder with ease using a round ball.

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Yes, Triple 7 is cleaner and black powder is more corrosive, but T7 will still chew on your steel if left alone too long.

The power is quite similar with Swiss being just a little more potent. The thing is Swiss is much more consistent giving a much smaller deviation between shots.

I’m not sure if Olde Eynsford by Goex is available anywhere, you might want to give them a try as well. American made so it’s cheaper. It performs just about as good as Swiss but some find it not quite as consistent, but still adequate.

I'm looking online to find some swiss, but I am finding different brands. It looks like the german company makes some swiss in a blue red and black 1lb container as well as graf and sons in an orange and black container. which one is the more well known swiss? Or the one that is being recommended when someone says swiss.

Dundee said:

I'm looking online to find some swiss, but I am finding different brands. It looks like the german company makes some swiss in a blue red and black 1lb container as well as graf and sons in an orange and black container. which one is the more well known swiss? Or the one that is being recommended when someone says swiss.

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Swiss is made in Switzerland and the new containers has a cube looking logo on it. The German made is Schuetzen and a total different brand made by Wano in Germany. Grafs is just repackage Schuetzen these days, but they used to sell repackaged GOEX some time back. I have quite a bit experience tinkering with ROA ( I have 5 tailored for different projos) and been happy with them. As mention before the best bet is to modify your measure to measure thrucharges, I have one that I filed off the markings on it and it gets re marked based in the powder at hand by lot as a standard, mostly using GOEX 3F, and then use to throw whatever I need to shoot using the volume equivalent. Another thing to think about stout loads is bullet can get pulled from the cylinder by recoil binding the cylinder, happens with LEE REALs as they only have an over size front band. The rear bands don’t grab much of the cylinder very well as they are somewhat under size!

(Edit: True charges by weighting them on a scale and determining volume).

Have only been tinkering with an ROA for about 12 years. Blued 7.5” barrel, deepend cylinder by previous owner, brass SBH “Dragoon” grip frame with smooth rosewood grip scales.
Round ball I use swaged Hornady .457 over a wool wad and 35-45gr of 3F powder. Or 15gr loose 3F powder and a 30gr pistol pellet. Can put all 6 in a standard paper plate 5 pecan trees away. Trees are 60’ (20yd) on center.
Bullets I use 230gr .452 lead round nose meant for .45acp “Wild Bunch” cowboy shooting. 30gr loose powder or 5gr loose and 30gr pistol pellet, no wad but grease the mouths. Again, all 6 in a paper plate at 100 yards. Pellets tend to cruch up.
Max load with the deeper cylinder is 50gr of 3F Swiss. Accuracy goes down, recoil goes up, fun factor is nil.
I hunt piglets and does with the ROA. Full sized pigs I’ll take my .54 GPR or (shudder) an SKS loaded with pseudo jhp (private land only).
I’d love to get a pair of 5.5” fixed sight stainless ROAs for SASS or similar. Both Pyrodrek and T7 are hard on blued guns.

The relevance of non calibrated powder volume measures vs weight is a major issue.

My powder measure lists mean nothing if not referenced to a weight. Clearly there is a wild swing in volume measures.

The standards should be either a measured weight or a velocity with a + or - range.

Now, I don't have to weight my charges for my own use. Its relative and Brass Measure of 30 means a certain velocity area and I can increase or decrease that to suit myself and what I am getting.

Most people don't have access tio a LabRadar or Gramin - those are the gold standard. Other Chronoes may or may not work. The Labradar sometimes does not work, gets a wrong velocity etc. But I can tell from the data I have logged what is valid and what is not. A no reading is a non issue and it does happen.

So, if you want to relate loads so that others can see what you are doing, its needs to be by weight or velocity and then others can see what that is in their own Volume measure terms.

While Garmin and Labradar are expensive, a digital dispenser is not.

A lot is made of calibration. All you need to do is weight your pan, write the weight down on the pan. Zero the scale with the pan on it. Then lift the pan and see if the negative number matches the pan weight.

If it varies more than a tenths + or -, zero it again with the pan on it. You got a calibration without all the fuss.