Kaido's 240gr Conical is a Keeper for sure

[M. De Land]

From what little data that’s been posted by people using sporting grade power and bullets one could expect to see 875-950 fps with a 230 grn bullet. And that’s with the 5.5” shorter version like my NMA. And someone else stated theirs was getting even higher results. I’m a bit skeptical. Even at standard .45 ACP levels it’s no joke. If it’s a little spicier all the better. If I want more spice I can just use the Ruger.

Mr Belivideau’s results using reduced charges of Triple 7 behind Kaido’s 255 grn version got awful close to 500 ft/lbs, and I’d venture to guess that same 25 grn charge would fit under the 240 grn bullet in a repro. That’s well within +P.

What is meant by sporting grade powder, smokeless, black or substitute !

 

[rodwha]

What is meant by sporting grade powder, smokeless, black or substitute !

Sporting grade was first used that I’m aware of back during the Civil War when Hazard’s (and I’m sure others, but weren’t the focus as this was on their paper cartridges used by the military) used what seems better charcoal and what you see is powders akin to todays Swiss, Olde Eynsford, and Triple7 compared to virtually all of the other powders than are more like Goex and such when comparing loads.

When I first got my ROA I looked down at the cylinder and wondered if it was virtually a .45 Colt, but when I asked on various forums thirsting for knowledge I was told these were inhumane producing no more energy than a standard .38 Spl. Yeah, if you used the common weaker powders such as Goex. Use the same volume of Swiss and it jumps exponentially in power output. Those 750 fps turned into nearly 900, a huge difference.

As to smokeless, black, and substitute I’m not sure what you’re getting at. Can you be more specific please?

 

[M. De Land]

Sporting grade was first used that I’m aware of back during the Civil War when Hazard’s (and I’m sure others, but weren’t the focus as this was on their paper cartridges used by the military) used what seems better charcoal and what you see is powders akin to todays Swiss, Olde Eynsford, and Triple7 compared to virtually all of the other powders than are more like Goex and such when comparing loads.

When I first got my ROA I looked down at the cylinder and wondered if it was virtually a .45 Colt, but when I asked on various forums thirsting for knowledge I was told these were inhumane producing no more energy than a standard .38 Spl. Yeah, if you used the common weaker powders such as Goex. Use the same volume of Swiss and it jumps exponentially in power output. Those 750 fps turned into nearly 900, a huge difference.

As to smokeless, black, and substitute I’m not sure what you’re getting at. Can you be more specific please?

What propellant was used in the 230 grain bullet going 875-950 fps in a 5.5 inch barrel?

 

[rodwha]

What propellant was used in the 230 grain bullet going 875-950 fps in a 5.5 inch barrel?

This is based on posted information using similar propellants and projectiles. There’s plenty of chronographed results. So using those published in books and online point to this. One day I’ll likely have my own and publish my results as well.

 

[M. De Land]

This is based on posted information using similar propellants and projectiles. There’s plenty of chronographed results. So using those published in books and online point to this. One day I’ll likely have my own and publish my results as well.

I was asking wither or not black powder was used to achieve the quoted velocity and mistakenly ended with an exclamation mark instead of question mark. That velocity of the upper end (950 fps) seems quite high for Black powder and that weight of bullet, 850 maybe but that would be about it me thinks especially in a 5.5 inch barrel.

 

[rodwha]

What propellant was used in the 230 grain bullet going 875-950 fps in a 5.5 inch barrel?

All of the velocities/energy figures were using a sporting grade powder, and the bullet weights vary of course. The friction fit of each will make the pressures vary as well. And because there’s so much variance I’ve given a range. Samples are taken from Mr Beliveau’s testing, Lyman’s Black Powder Handbook, Percussion Revolvers by Cumston and Bates, as well as the plethora of ballistics given online, along with even the testing done on the Hazard’s .44 caliber paper cartridges. I’ve excluded the extreme velocities of some claims as well as claims of gobs of powder behind a bullet. I’ve seen that with Pyrodex P claims. But maybe, I’m not going to test that as this is working splendidly assuming that indeed .45 ACP performance is working attainable. The Ruger will do even better.

I had sent you some bullets maybe a decade or so ago. Shirt for caliber bullets. That this won’t be, though the wide meplat remains and how it is I can get that much lead over nice powder charges. It’ll also have slightly longer driving bands.

 

[M. De Land]

All of the velocities/energy figures were using a sporting grade powder, and the bullet weights vary of course. The friction fit of each will make the pressures vary as well. And because there’s so much variance I’ve given a range. Samples are taken from Mr Beliveau’s testing, Lyman’s Black Powder Handbook, Percussion Revolvers by Cumston and Bates, as well as the plethora of ballistics given online, along with even the testing done on the Hazard’s .44 caliber paper cartridges. I’ve excluded the extreme velocities of some claims as well as claims of gobs of powder behind a bullet. I’ve seen that with Pyrodex P claims. But maybe, I’m not going to test that as this is working splendidly assuming that indeed .45 ACP performance is working attainable. The Ruger will do even better.

I had sent you some bullets maybe a decade or so ago. Shirt for caliber bullets. That this won’t be, though the wide meplat remains and how it is I can get that much lead over nice powder charges. It’ll also have slightly longer driving bands.

I think I still have the bullets you sent squirreled away here some where and will have to give them a try in the Walker. I'll try and remember to take a chronograph and get some readings. I have the Walker in pieces on the bench while milling it for a new front sight and loading lever latch.
Haven't made up my mind about reaming the tapered chambers out yet but will do some more testing before I decide.
Anxious to get both it and the new 51 out to the range for some data testing!

 

[rodwha]

I think I still have the bullets you sent squirreled away here some where and will have to give them a try in the Walker. I'll try and remember to take a chronograph and get some readings. I have the Walker in pieces on the bench while milling it for a new front sight and loading lever latch.
Haven't made up my mind about reaming the tapered chambers out yet but will do some more testing before I decide.
Anxious to get both it and the new 51 out to the range for some data testing!

Curious if the originals had tapered chambers as well. If not how has it reduced capacity with a ball? We’ve all heard the 60 grns of powder as a max with a ball.

I need to run those super short bullets with a max charge out of my Ruger just to see, never tried it. Being only .400” long it’ll hold additional powder plus create additional pressure having more bearing surface and extra mass. Doubt it’s much but it’s present. Wonder if they’ll group well like usual.

 

[M. De Land]

Curious if the originals had tapered chambers as well. If not how has it reduced capacity with a ball? We’ve all heard the 60 grns of powder as a max with a ball.

I need to run those super short bullets with a max charge out of my Ruger just to see, never tried it. Being only .400” long it’ll hold additional powder plus create additional pressure having more bearing surface and extra mass. Doubt it’s much but it’s present. Wonder if they’ll group well like usual.

I could only get 45 grains of 3 F behind the 200 grain ACP bullet in the new Uberti Walker and I think I recall 54 behind the ball.
I think removing the taper would probably gain me another 6-8 grains but that's only a guess.

 

[45D]

Curious if the originals had tapered chambers as well. If not how has it reduced capacity with a ball? We’ve all heard the 60 grns of powder as a max with a ball.

Originals chambers were not tapered.

Mike

 

[M. De Land]

Originals chambers were not tapered.

Mike

I'm wondering if this may not be a built in safety against front end chain fire by Uberti ?

 

[45D]

I'm wondering if this may not be a built in safety against front end chain fire by Uberti ?

Probably as well as lowering "maximum" charges if there's bad chamber/ bbl misalignment. I've always figured the smaller than bore chambers were an Italian "built in" lawyer safety as well.

Mike

 

[M. De Land]

Probably as well as lowering "maximum" charges if there's bad chamber/ bbl misalignment. I've always figured the smaller than bore chambers were an Italian "built in" lawyer safety as well.

Mike

I would dearly love to get some dimensions (chamber throats and groove diameter) on an original Walker, 51 and 60. Trouble is some specialized equipment that most folks don't have is needed to do the job accurately and conveniently (Cerosafe , micrometer, Powely gauge or tri-mic.
And to folks with original guns are not going to cotton to some one dissembling their guns simply because they are curios about original dimension.

 

[M. De Land]

I would dearly love to get some dimensions (chamber throats and groove diameter) on an original Walker, 51 and 60. Trouble is some specialized equipment that most folks don't have is needed to do the job accurately and conveniently (Cerosafe , micrometer, Powely gauge or tri-mic.
And to folks with original guns are not going to cotton to some one dissembling their guns simply because they are curios about original dimension.

Here's my current crop of .45 cal revolver slugs that potentially could be used in the percussion guns from 337 grain LBT custom, 280 grain RCBS Kieth, 200 grain ACP bullet currently used in the Walker and 200 grain round ogive, flat nose, some one gave me a bag of. The last one has a BHN of 15 so may be a bit hard to load in the Walker.
IF that last one shoots I may make a copy of it as I like the profile.
You would think that big one would tumble out a ways but the friend who's designed it is has tested it to 200 yards and has killed a bear or two with it. He says it is real accurate and really thumps game.
Veral Smith of LBT made the mold for Dennis and advised him the bullet would probably tumble with the shallow ogive angle but when it didn't he added it to his line of bullet molds to be offered according to Dennis.
The big one is a gas check design but one wouldn't use a GC in a percussion gun me thinks. The gas check base configuration with out the GC would help it seating I'm guessing. I think loading it in a loading press out of the gun, in the Walker, one might be able to get 40 grains or so of 3F behind it. I'd be really surprised if it would throttle up to 800 fps with that load though or stay put under recoil and not tie the gun up.