Maximum loads for 1858 Remington

Dale Lilly said:

While we are on this subject, what load would you recommend for a 1858 Rem brass frame and a 1851 Colt Replica brass frame? Dale
Edit: both are in fine condition.

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Small Arms Collector said:

I’m attempting to find the maximum load for an 8 inch Pietta 44 caliber 1858 Remington using the Kerr bullet from Erasgone, and also wondering about historic loadings

Would it be possible to use the Kerr bullet over 35 grains of 3F? What about 40? Or is 30 all that would fit? I would be using either triple 7 or Swiss.

What load would historically been used in paper cartridges?

Would it be safe to use 4F or Swiss 0b? Is it even possible to find Swiss 0b? I doubt that would be safe in an original, but what about these modern reproductions? Generally 4F is for priming only, but I wonder…

My goal, if possible, is to get a Kerr to 1,000 feet per second or better.

I should provide context. My entry in to the world of cap and ball has 3 main reasons: 1: fun, it is a lot of fun 2: possible use in cowboy action and 3 (The main one): as a backup in a no ammo scenario. I still remember the last panic and the empty ammo shelves and damn near $2 a round for 9mm plinking rounds, and it’s still not entirely over as prices are still not quite back to pre panic levels. What if that happens again, and what if the ammo does not come back (I’ll leave the reason up to you), how do I get ammo? Well I do reload, but to this day finding primers is not simple and I categorically refuse to pay $90-$100+ for a box of 1,000, and during a panic powder is an issue getting too, as are casings, and bullets. I see cap and ball as a work around, I can mold my own bullets from scrap lead, I don’t need casings, and if I really have to I can make my own percussion caps too (and they will not sell out right away like everything else, though they eventually do), so they are a way to keep shooting. Also, should the time ever come when I am even out of my defensive ammo they are something that I can carry, that’s mostly my reasoning to find the max load, close range defense, and at 1,000+ feet per second (or even close) a heavy conical like a kerr would rival even some modern ammo for power.

Why the Kerr? Because conicals are better and the Kerr is the only historical bullet that will fit all the modern reproductions (the Johnson and Dow is close but there are some that even it won’t fit).

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jdn262 said:

I load my Uberti .44 ca. 8" barrel Remington NMA with the following chronograph averages using a .454 ball with no ill effects.

25 gr. Triple 7 averaged 881 fps for a calculated 241 ft-lbs energy
30 gr. Triple 7 averaged 990 fps for a calculated 305 ft-lbs energy

I would not go much beyond 30 gr. of Triple 7.

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Small Arms Collector said:

I’m attempting to find the maximum load for an 8 inch Pietta 44 caliber 1858 Remington using the Kerr bullet from Erasgone, and also wondering about historic loadings

Would it be possible to use the Kerr bullet over 35 grains of 3F? What about 40? Or is 30 all that would fit? I would be using either triple 7 or Swiss.

What load would historically been used in paper cartridges?

Would it be safe to use 4F or Swiss 0b? Is it even possible to find Swiss 0b? I doubt that would be safe in an original, but what about these modern reproductions? Generally 4F is for priming only, but I wonder…

My goal, if possible, is to get a Kerr to 1,000 feet per second or better.

I should provide context. My entry in to the world of cap and ball has 3 main reasons: 1: fun, it is a lot of fun 2: possible use in cowboy action and 3 (The main one): as a backup in a no ammo scenario. I still remember the last panic and the empty ammo shelves and damn near $2 a round for 9mm plinking rounds, and it’s still not entirely over as prices are still not quite back to pre panic levels. What if that happens again, and what if the ammo does not come back (I’ll leave the reason up to you), how do I get ammo? Well I do reload, but to this day finding primers is not simple and I categorically refuse to pay $90-$100+ for a box of 1,000, and during a panic powder is an issue getting too, as are casings, and bullets. I see cap and ball as a work around, I can mold my own bullets from scrap lead, I don’t need casings, and if I really have to I can make my own percussion caps too (and they will not sell out right away like everything else, though they eventually do), so they are a way to keep shooting. Also, should the time ever come when I am even out of my defensive ammo they are something that I can carry, that’s mostly my reasoning to find the max load, close range defense, and at 1,000+ feet per second (or even close) a heavy conical like a kerr would rival even some modern ammo for power.

Why the Kerr? Because conicals are better and the Kerr is the only historical bullet that will fit all the modern reproductions (the Johnson and Dow is close but there are some that even it won’t fit).

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Pete453 said:

That should do the trick, i cast mine at 9-11 brinell, they seem to shoot well. those 220s have killed 2 deer at the furthest range ive shot deer. The 185s killed a big doe out of my 58 Remington at 34 paces. So the old guns have what it takes when fed properly. Do you have any pictures of the Kerrs after the rammer flattens them out?

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Small Arms Collector said:

I’m attempting to find the maximum load for an 8 inch Pietta 44 caliber 1858 Remington using the Kerr bullet from Erasgone, and also wondering about historic loadings

Would it be possible to use the Kerr bullet over 35 grains of 3F? What about 40? Or is 30 all that would fit? I would be using either triple 7 or Swiss.

What load would historically been used in paper cartridges?

Would it be safe to use 4F or Swiss 0b? Is it even possible to find Swiss 0b? I doubt that would be safe in an original, but what about these modern reproductions? Generally 4F is for priming only, but I wonder…

My goal, if possible, is to get a Kerr to 1,000 feet per second or better.

I should provide context. My entry in to the world of cap and ball has 3 main reasons: 1: fun, it is a lot of fun 2: possible use in cowboy action and 3 (The main one): as a backup in a no ammo scenario. I still remember the last panic and the empty ammo shelves and damn near $2 a round for 9mm plinking rounds, and it’s still not entirely over as prices are still not quite back to pre panic levels. What if that happens again, and what if the ammo does not come back (I’ll leave the reason up to you), how do I get ammo? Well I do reload, but to this day finding primers is not simple and I categorically refuse to pay $90-$100+ for a box of 1,000, and during a panic powder is an issue getting too, as are casings, and bullets. I see cap and ball as a work around, I can mold my own bullets from scrap lead, I don’t need casings, and if I really have to I can make my own percussion caps too (and they will not sell out right away like everything else, though they eventually do), so they are a way to keep shooting. Also, should the time ever come when I am even out of my defensive ammo they are something that I can carry, that’s mostly my reasoning to find the max load, close range defense, and at 1,000+ feet per second (or even close) a heavy conical like a kerr would rival even some modern ammo for power.

Why the Kerr? Because conicals are better and the Kerr is the only historical bullet that will fit all the modern reproductions (the Johnson and Dow is close but there are some that even it won’t fit).

Click to expand...

Pete453 said:

My Pietta 58 will hold 40grs 3f and a ball with over ball lube. That load layed out plenty of men during the CW. The Kerr's are pointy, if you want to shoot meat you want as big of a flat point as you can get. With these 185gr flat point bullets, my 58 will hold 35grs Goex 3f and hit 1000fps. A 220gr version out of my old army shot through this deer at 75-80 yds. They kill deer just fine. If you only hit 900fps, they would blow through most anything that needs shooting. Don't worry so much about speed, go for a big flat point, or a full load with a round ball. You'll be fine, providing you can shoot well.

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muzzleloadingat18 said:

I can fit 60 gn of pyrodex p and a round ball haven't died yet so if it's safe.

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Pete453 said:

My Pietta 58 will hold 40grs 3f and a ball with over ball lube. That load layed out plenty of men during the CW. The Kerr's are pointy, if you want to shoot meat you want as big of a flat point as you can get. With these 185gr flat point bullets, my 58 will hold 35grs Goex 3f and hit 1000fps. A 220gr version out of my old army shot through this deer at 75-80 yds. They kill deer just fine. If you only hit 900fps, they would blow through most anything that needs shooting. Don't worry so much about speed, go for a big flat point, or a full load with a round ball. You'll be fine, providing you can shoot well.

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Smokerr said:

Best velocity that is accurate is what counts and the conicals only give a bit more BC and at the BP ranges not really a factor (well and the normal accuracy sans 45D Work over)

Also keep in mind, the fast you push a pure lead bullet the more likely you are to get leading in the rifling (why its not pistoling ????)

Keep em under 1000 fps unless its a coated bullet.

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Walkabout said:

Where did you aquire flat point bullets? Thanks

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Small Arms Collector said:

I’m attempting to find the maximum load for an 8 inch Pietta 44 caliber 1858 Remington using the Kerr bullet from Erasgone, and also wondering about historic loadings

Would it be possible to use the Kerr bullet over 35 grains of 3F? What about 40? Or is 30 all that would fit? I would be using either triple 7 or Swiss.

What load would historically been used in paper cartridges?

Would it be safe to use 4F or Swiss 0b? Is it even possible to find Swiss 0b? I doubt that would be safe in an original, but what about these modern reproductions? Generally 4F is for priming only, but I wonder…

My goal, if possible, is to get a Kerr to 1,000 feet per second or better.

I should provide context. My entry in to the world of cap and ball has 3 main reasons: 1: fun, it is a lot of fun 2: possible use in cowboy action and 3 (The main one): as a backup in a no ammo scenario. I still remember the last panic and the empty ammo shelves and damn near $2 a round for 9mm plinking rounds, and it’s still not entirely over as prices are still not quite back to pre panic levels. What if that happens again, and what if the ammo does not come back (I’ll leave the reason up to you), how do I get ammo? Well I do reload, but to this day finding primers is not simple and I categorically refuse to pay $90-$100+ for a box of 1,000, and during a panic powder is an issue getting too, as are casings, and bullets. I see cap and ball as a work around, I can mold my own bullets from scrap lead, I don’t need casings, and if I really have to I can make my own percussion caps too (and they will not sell out right away like everything else, though they eventually do), so they are a way to keep shooting. Also, should the time ever come when I am even out of my defensive ammo they are something that I can carry, that’s mostly my reasoning to find the max load, close range defense, and at 1,000+ feet per second (or even close) a heavy conical like a kerr would rival even some modern ammo for power.

Why the Kerr? Because conicals are better and the Kerr is the only historical bullet that will fit all the modern reproductions (the Johnson and Dow is close but there are some that even it won’t fit).

Click to expand...

new2bp said:

With a steel frame 1858, round balls (144gr of weight, not a lot of bearing surface for friction), using real BP the max powder charge is however much you can cram in the hole and still fully seat the bullet. Someone posted some velocity numbers on this forum with various amounts of powder and using both real black and substitutes, would be worth looking at, but IIRC a 35gr 3Fg charge got the ball moving at 850ish fps.

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