Maximum loads for 1858 Remington

[user 33697]

While we are on this subject, what load would you recommend for a 1858 Rem brass frame and a 1851 Colt Replica brass frame? Dale
Edit: both are in fine condition.

There have been several posts in the forum concerning brass frame revolvers and loads. Below are some links on the subject.

https://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/threads/loads-for-a-pietta-1858-brass-remington-44-cal.14910/
https://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/threads/random-observations-on-revolver-shooting.161795/
https://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/threads/load-data-for-a-brass-frame-1860.132724/
https://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/threads/frame-stretch.130285/

 

[M. De Land]

I’m attempting to find the maximum load for an 8 inch Pietta 44 caliber 1858 Remington using the Kerr bullet from Erasgone, and also wondering about historic loadings

Would it be possible to use the Kerr bullet over 35 grains of 3F? What about 40? Or is 30 all that would fit? I would be using either triple 7 or Swiss.

What load would historically been used in paper cartridges?

Would it be safe to use 4F or Swiss 0b? Is it even possible to find Swiss 0b? I doubt that would be safe in an original, but what about these modern reproductions? Generally 4F is for priming only, but I wonder…

My goal, if possible, is to get a Kerr to 1,000 feet per second or better.

I should provide context. My entry in to the world of cap and ball has 3 main reasons: 1: fun, it is a lot of fun 2: possible use in cowboy action and 3 (The main one): as a backup in a no ammo scenario. I still remember the last panic and the empty ammo shelves and damn near $2 a round for 9mm plinking rounds, and it’s still not entirely over as prices are still not quite back to pre panic levels. What if that happens again, and what if the ammo does not come back (I’ll leave the reason up to you), how do I get ammo? Well I do reload, but to this day finding primers is not simple and I categorically refuse to pay $90-$100+ for a box of 1,000, and during a panic powder is an issue getting too, as are casings, and bullets. I see cap and ball as a work around, I can mold my own bullets from scrap lead, I don’t need casings, and if I really have to I can make my own percussion caps too (and they will not sell out right away like everything else, though they eventually do), so they are a way to keep shooting. Also, should the time ever come when I am even out of my defensive ammo they are something that I can carry, that’s mostly my reasoning to find the max load, close range defense, and at 1,000+ feet per second (or even close) a heavy conical like a kerr would rival even some modern ammo for power.

Why the Kerr? Because conicals are better and the Kerr is the only historical bullet that will fit all the modern reproductions (the Johnson and Dow is close but there are some that even it won’t fit).

Some Ideas I would like to try probably in my ROA is to drop tube powder into each chamber and possibly also to try, 2 or 3 stage powder compressions using the ramer, as an alternative.
We use drop tubing a lot to increase powder charge in mid and long range black powder cartridge work. I have a half inch ID anodized aluminum drop tube 30 inches long that does a really nice job.
Both will yield more powder capacity by removing air space between the grains.

 

[Stantheman86]

I load my Uberti .44 ca. 8" barrel Remington NMA with the following chronograph averages using a .454 ball with no ill effects.

25 gr. Triple 7 averaged 881 fps for a calculated 241 ft-lbs energy
30 gr. Triple 7 averaged 990 fps for a calculated 305 ft-lbs energy

I would not go much beyond 30 gr. of Triple 7.

I use 30gr of 777 "2f" in my Pietta .44 Navies , with a .454 ball and it's accurate and powerful

I plan on trying 35gr of the same 777 in my Uberti 1858 Carbine

 

[smoothshooter]

I’m attempting to find the maximum load for an 8 inch Pietta 44 caliber 1858 Remington using the Kerr bullet from Erasgone, and also wondering about historic loadings

Would it be possible to use the Kerr bullet over 35 grains of 3F? What about 40? Or is 30 all that would fit? I would be using either triple 7 or Swiss.

What load would historically been used in paper cartridges?

Would it be safe to use 4F or Swiss 0b? Is it even possible to find Swiss 0b? I doubt that would be safe in an original, but what about these modern reproductions? Generally 4F is for priming only, but I wonder…

My goal, if possible, is to get a Kerr to 1,000 feet per second or better.

I should provide context. My entry in to the world of cap and ball has 3 main reasons: 1: fun, it is a lot of fun 2: possible use in cowboy action and 3 (The main one): as a backup in a no ammo scenario. I still remember the last panic and the empty ammo shelves and damn near $2 a round for 9mm plinking rounds, and it’s still not entirely over as prices are still not quite back to pre panic levels. What if that happens again, and what if the ammo does not come back (I’ll leave the reason up to you), how do I get ammo? Well I do reload, but to this day finding primers is not simple and I categorically refuse to pay $90-$100+ for a box of 1,000, and during a panic powder is an issue getting too, as are casings, and bullets. I see cap and ball as a work around, I can mold my own bullets from scrap lead, I don’t need casings, and if I really have to I can make my own percussion caps too (and they will not sell out right away like everything else, though they eventually do), so they are a way to keep shooting. Also, should the time ever come when I am even out of my defensive ammo they are something that I can carry, that’s mostly my reasoning to find the max load, close range defense, and at 1,000+ feet per second (or even close) a heavy conical like a kerr would rival even some modern ammo for power.

Why the Kerr? Because conicals are better and the Kerr is the only historical bullet that will fit all the modern reproductions (the Johnson and Dow is close but there are some that even it won’t fit).

The maximum load is the heaviest one that will fit in the chambers.

 

[nkbj]

And the accuracy load is the one that shoots best with a given bullet.
Brassless don't mean you caint hit nothing. Just means you caint see it if the wind stops blowing.

 

[Lone Carabiner]

loading a Lee mold slug over 28 gr 3F is a 'compressed load' in a '58 Rem OA which I've shot through scrub pine saplings - and a dressed weight of nearly 200 lb feral boar, through the lungs busting a rib. range around 40'. over bait as they're 'destructive specie' now. ground blind shot.

 

[Bad Karma]

That should do the trick, i cast mine at 9-11 brinell, they seem to shoot well. those 220s have killed 2 deer at the furthest range ive shot deer. The 185s killed a big doe out of my 58 Remington at 34 paces. So the old guns have what it takes when fed properly. Do you have any pictures of the Kerrs after the rammer flattens them out?

Hey Pete… here’s a view of the flattened Kerr… and twelve shots offhand at 25 yards. Yeah they’re hitting pretty high

 

[muzzleloadingat18]

I’m attempting to find the maximum load for an 8 inch Pietta 44 caliber 1858 Remington using the Kerr bullet from Erasgone, and also wondering about historic loadings

Would it be possible to use the Kerr bullet over 35 grains of 3F? What about 40? Or is 30 all that would fit? I would be using either triple 7 or Swiss.

What load would historically been used in paper cartridges?

Would it be safe to use 4F or Swiss 0b? Is it even possible to find Swiss 0b? I doubt that would be safe in an original, but what about these modern reproductions? Generally 4F is for priming only, but I wonder…

My goal, if possible, is to get a Kerr to 1,000 feet per second or better.

I should provide context. My entry in to the world of cap and ball has 3 main reasons: 1: fun, it is a lot of fun 2: possible use in cowboy action and 3 (The main one): as a backup in a no ammo scenario. I still remember the last panic and the empty ammo shelves and damn near $2 a round for 9mm plinking rounds, and it’s still not entirely over as prices are still not quite back to pre panic levels. What if that happens again, and what if the ammo does not come back (I’ll leave the reason up to you), how do I get ammo? Well I do reload, but to this day finding primers is not simple and I categorically refuse to pay $90-$100+ for a box of 1,000, and during a panic powder is an issue getting too, as are casings, and bullets. I see cap and ball as a work around, I can mold my own bullets from scrap lead, I don’t need casings, and if I really have to I can make my own percussion caps too (and they will not sell out right away like everything else, though they eventually do), so they are a way to keep shooting. Also, should the time ever come when I am even out of my defensive ammo they are something that I can carry, that’s mostly my reasoning to find the max load, close range defense, and at 1,000+ feet per second (or even close) a heavy conical like a kerr would rival even some modern ammo for power.

Why the Kerr? Because conicals are better and the Kerr is the only historical bullet that will fit all the modern reproductions (the Johnson and Dow is close but there are some that even it won’t fit).

I can fit 60 gn of pyrodex p and a round ball haven't died yet so if it's safe.

 

[Loreoff]

My Pietta 58 will hold 40grs 3f and a ball with over ball lube. That load layed out plenty of men during the CW. The Kerr's are pointy, if you want to shoot meat you want as big of a flat point as you can get. With these 185gr flat point bullets, my 58 will hold 35grs Goex 3f and hit 1000fps. A 220gr version out of my old army shot through this deer at 75-80 yds. They kill deer just fine. If you only hit 900fps, they would blow through most anything that needs shooting. Don't worry so much about speed, go for a big flat point, or a full load with a round ball. You'll be fine, providing you can shoot well.

May i ask where you found the 185gr flat point bullets

 

[ernbar]

I can fit 60 gn of pyrodex p and a round ball haven't died yet so if it's safe.

A Walker load in a 58 Remington and using Pyrodex?

 

[Walkabout]

My Pietta 58 will hold 40grs 3f and a ball with over ball lube. That load layed out plenty of men during the CW. The Kerr's are pointy, if you want to shoot meat you want as big of a flat point as you can get. With these 185gr flat point bullets, my 58 will hold 35grs Goex 3f and hit 1000fps. A 220gr version out of my old army shot through this deer at 75-80 yds. They kill deer just fine. If you only hit 900fps, they would blow through most anything that needs shooting. Don't worry so much about speed, go for a big flat point, or a full load with a round ball. You'll be fine, providing you can shoot well.

Where did you aquire flat point bullets? Thanks

 

[Smokerr]

Best velocity that is accurate is what counts and the conicals only give a bit more BC and at the BP ranges not really a factor (well and the normal accuracy sans 45D Work over)

Also keep in mind, the fast you push a pure lead bullet the more likely you are to get leading in the rifling (why its not pistoling ????)

Keep em under 1000 fps unless its a coated bullet.

 

[Bad Karma]

Best velocity that is accurate is what counts and the conicals only give a bit more BC and at the BP ranges not really a factor (well and the normal accuracy sans 45D Work over)

Also keep in mind, the fast you push a pure lead bullet the more likely you are to get leading in the rifling (why its not pistoling ????)

Keep em under 1000 fps unless its a coated bullet.

Or if you’re using IdahoLewis’ secret recipe lube…

 

[nick_1]

has anyone double balled these rigs? I have accidentally double charged both my .50 cal and .44 cal single shot pistols more than once each. no big deal. I suspect that the 2nd powder charge never ignited but acted as a cushion between balls. this could be replicated with a felt wad or some corn meal. I did one with the .50 cal a few weeks ago that hit about 12 inches low @ 50 yrds but windage was correct and the two balls printed about 1.25" apart. I have done it several times at 25hrds and never seen the holes more than 3" apart. If one worked up the elevation dope that would be one heck of a self defense load. I am chicken to try it with a revolver but if I was expecting borders on my sailing ship BINTD I would have been tempted to double ball about six pistols and wear them on a bandoleer.

 

[Smokerr]

Back in my early days of pistol shooting, I believe I had a squib in a 44 magnum and then proceeded to not think and cock and shoot it again (Ruger).

No barrel bulge and as accurate as ever, yes I was young and not so smart.

 

[rodwha]

Where did you aquire flat point bullets? Thanks

You can get/create a mold with Accurate Mold or purchase the modified Lee bullets from Kaido. I’m sure there are others.

 

[springfield art]

I’m attempting to find the maximum load for an 8 inch Pietta 44 caliber 1858 Remington using the Kerr bullet from Erasgone, and also wondering about historic loadings

Would it be possible to use the Kerr bullet over 35 grains of 3F? What about 40? Or is 30 all that would fit? I would be using either triple 7 or Swiss.

What load would historically been used in paper cartridges?

Would it be safe to use 4F or Swiss 0b? Is it even possible to find Swiss 0b? I doubt that would be safe in an original, but what about these modern reproductions? Generally 4F is for priming only, but I wonder…

My goal, if possible, is to get a Kerr to 1,000 feet per second or better.

I should provide context. My entry in to the world of cap and ball has 3 main reasons: 1: fun, it is a lot of fun 2: possible use in cowboy action and 3 (The main one): as a backup in a no ammo scenario. I still remember the last panic and the empty ammo shelves and damn near $2 a round for 9mm plinking rounds, and it’s still not entirely over as prices are still not quite back to pre panic levels. What if that happens again, and what if the ammo does not come back (I’ll leave the reason up to you), how do I get ammo? Well I do reload, but to this day finding primers is not simple and I categorically refuse to pay $90-$100+ for a box of 1,000, and during a panic powder is an issue getting too, as are casings, and bullets. I see cap and ball as a work around, I can mold my own bullets from scrap lead, I don’t need casings, and if I really have to I can make my own percussion caps too (and they will not sell out right away like everything else, though they eventually do), so they are a way to keep shooting. Also, should the time ever come when I am even out of my defensive ammo they are something that I can carry, that’s mostly my reasoning to find the max load, close range defense, and at 1,000+ feet per second (or even close) a heavy conical like a kerr would rival even some modern ammo for power.

Why the Kerr? Because conicals are better and the Kerr is the only historical bullet that will fit all the modern reproductions (the Johnson and Dow is close but there are some that even it won’t fit).

Most perc. revolvers will take whatever will fit in the cylinder, yes? Black powder only, that is, I'd think. I admire guys who really get into C&B revolvers, as I only tinker a bit with then up to now.

 

[smoothshooter]

With a steel frame 1858, round balls (144gr of weight, not a lot of bearing surface for friction), using real BP the max powder charge is however much you can cram in the hole and still fully seat the bullet. Someone posted some velocity numbers on this forum with various amounts of powder and using both real black and substitutes, would be worth looking at, but IIRC a 35gr 3Fg charge got the ball moving at 850ish fps.

The maximum load is however much you can get in the chambers and still rotate the cylinder.
Whole different philosophy than loading metallic cartridges for modern guns.

 

[nick_1]

25g and two round balls will fit. Who's going to try it for us?

 

[nick_1]

I just received a 220g .456 conical mold from lee. immediately cast 64 conicals. Its a LOT more lead usage than .454 RB! I have no idea how this is going to work?? On the Lee site it was sold as a conical specifically for .44 cap and ball revolvers. I don't have any real bullet lube yet but will use bore butter untill my Lee bullet lube arives from TOTW.. plan to load with my standard 25g spout of T7 on the bench with my bench loader. How do you get them to go in the cylinder straight???