Custom Revolvers

Sometimes I just shake my head at the things people need to start a debate over.

Ed C. said:

This was very interesting to me. I learned that there were Colt screwless frame revolvers made that did have the pins welded over in order to facilitate very fine engraving work. Show guns. You could shoot them but not made for disassembly.
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That is flat out gorgeous

Interesting to look at but that's all . I'd give a hard pass to owning one.

Eddie Southgate said:

Interesting to look at but that's all . I'd give a hard pass to owning one.

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Well as stated, it's a custom "option" so . . . but likewise, it's interesting that (apparently) given the option, you'd choose "less mechanical accuracy" and ease of assembly / disassembly . . .
Care to offer "why"? Just trying to understand "potential customer base" with something "new".

Mike

45D said:

Well as stated, it's a custom "option" so . . . but likewise, it's interesting that (apparently) given the option, you'd choose "less mechanical accuracy" and ease of assembly / disassembly . . .
Care to offer "why"? Just trying to understand "potential customer base" with something "new".

Mike

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In my case, as an average shooter, I can't imagine whatever mechanical accuracy advantage there is would make a noticeable difference in my shooting so as an old guy resistant to change I'd stick with the tried and true (180 years or so) screws. Also the possibility of the pins getting stuck, being difficult to remove the "i" pins. Not something I'd buy sight unseen.

45D said:

No sir, the "Action pins" are held in place with basically interference pins that are tapered on the end. Just gently pushing the Action pins out (toothpick or whatever) will move the interference pins out of the way. The mounted back strap and trigger guard keep the interference pins in position ( as normal). To reinstall, just push the a.pins in and push the i.pins down to lock them in place. It's faster and no buggered screw slots.

Mike

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You do know what you are doing, my friend.

Ed C. said:

In my case, as an average shooter, I can't imagine whatever mechanical accuracy advantage there is would make a noticeable difference in my shooting so as an old guy resistant to change I'd stick with the tried and true (180 years or so) screws. Also the possibility of the pins getting stuck, being difficult to remove the "i" pins. Not something I'd buy sight unseen.

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It really is a solution in search of a problem from a mechanical angle but is a nice touch for a conversation starter !

Eddie Southgate said:

Interesting to look at but that's all . I'd give a hard pass to owning one.

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I recognize the Elmer Keith picture as a boy over a century ago !

Ease of disassembly/assembly, and it dresses the revolver up quite nicely. Yes, I love it!

Ed C. said:

In my case, as an average shooter, I can't imagine whatever mechanical accuracy advantage there is would make a noticeable difference in my shooting so as an old guy resistant to change I'd stick with the tried and true (180 years or so) screws. Also the possibility of the pins getting stuck, being difficult to remove the "i" pins. Not something I'd buy sight unseen.

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I understand that for sure, especially if it's your first time getting any type tuning. It's a lot like the presence of an action stop ( and adjusted correctly) , ya don't know till ya know. The mechanical accuracy of the hammer tracking perfectly ( zero slack) as well as the trigger is something you understand after you've experienced it. As others have posted, the ease of assembling the action without the need of a screwdriver is definitely a plus !!

Thanks!!
Mike

Secesh said:

You do know what you are doing, my friend.

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Thank you sir!!!

Mike

45D said:

I understand that for sure, especially if it's your first time getting any type tuning. It's a lot like the presence of an action stop ( and adjusted correctly) , ya don't know till ya know. The mechanical accuracy of the hammer tracking perfectly ( zero slack) as well as the trigger is something you understand after you've experienced it. As others have posted, the ease of assembling the action without the need of a screwdriver is definitely a plus !!

Thanks!!
Mike

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You are a good salesman. I'd take a look at the real thing. Next factor would be cost.

M. De Land said:

It really is a solution in search of a problem from a mechanical angle but is a nice touch for a conversation starter !

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Thanks, definitely a conversation starter!! I agree that it's not satisfying a perceived problem but it definitely is a mechanical enhancement or "upgrade" from the out of the box offerings . . . with added aesthetics.

Mike

45D said:

I understand that for sure, especially if it's your first time getting any type tuning. It's a lot like the presence of an action stop ( and adjusted correctly) , ya don't know till ya know. The mechanical accuracy of the hammer tracking perfectly ( zero slack) as well as the trigger is something you understand after you've experienced it. As others have posted, the ease of assembling the action without the need of a screwdriver is definitely a plus !!

Thanks!!
Mike

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A word on tuning. This may get deleted. A few years ago I got the Evil Roy (tuned) version of an unmentionable Colt (Uberti) from Cimarron. Paid extra for the tuning. My first large caliber revolver. It felt soooo smooth! But due to a shortened hand coil spring the cylinder often would not reach lock up. And many light strikes. That was the beginning of my self education. Replaced the hand coil spring and mainspring. The gun is not as smooth but always goes bang now which is, above all, it's #1 function. I'm sure that all of your tuned guns function very well. Only positive remarks there. Just letting you know that, that was my first experience with tuning so I've come to accept factory triggers as long as they shoot. Also, after semi-autos, any BP trigger is a dream! Except my muskets...they are tuned to a hairs breath.

Ed C. said:

A word on tuning. This may get deleted. A few years ago I got the Evil Roy (tuned) version of an unmentionable Colt (Uberti) from Cimarron. Paid extra for the tuning. My first large caliber revolver. It felt soooo smooth! But due to a shortened hand coil spring the cylinder often would not reach lock up. And many light strikes. That was the beginning of my self education. Replaced the hand coil spring and mainspring. The gun is not as smooth but always goes bang now which is, above all, it's #1 function. I'm sure that all of your tuned guns function very well. Only positive remarks there. Just letting you know that, that was my first experience with tuning so I've come to accept factory triggers as long as they shoot. Also, after semi-autos, any BP trigger is a dream! Except my muskets...they are tuned to a hairs breath.

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Bingo, I totally get that!!!

Believe me, the "tuned from (pick your importer) is really no more than a spring change and the "good" ones may correct bolt drop . . .
That's not what I do . . . "They" don't - make and install a bolt block, add an action stop, thin the left bolt arm to take advantage of the lighter main spring (so failure to fire doesn't happen), reduce the cam height and polish, dress and contour the bolt head to protect the notches. Polish triggers, bolt heads, deburr cylinder ratchets and polish the ramps. Install an action shield (cap gun or cartridge), lighten the main spring (they replace), lighten action springs, ensure hammer face / nipple contact (must go bang!!) or correct firing pin protrusion. You can add in the time for drilling and threading all appropriate holes . . . There's also arbor length correction and cap posts for cap guns. Harden and color the screws. Plus any added extras (interference pins, recoil shield facing, 2 fingered hands for "convertibles") and now a "Screwless Frame" feature . . .
That all represents 12-15+ hours that I can promise you the importers don't do. So, you get what you pay . . . sometimes!!!

Mike

45D said:

Thanks, definitely a conversation starter!! I agree that it's not satisfying a perceived problem but it definitely is a mechanical enhancement or "upgrade" from the out of the box offerings . . . with added aesthetics.

Mike

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Why would pins fit the hammer and trigger pivot/frame holes any more accurately than properly fitting screws and thus increase performance ? I'm thinking perhaps because the major diameter of the thread area of a factory screw is generally a bit larger than the bearing axial portion of the screw that should fit the trigger/hammer holes they ride in ? If so than that is easy enough to remedy by turning and slit saw cutting slots on new screws, fitting the bearing portion to the respective holes and reducing the thread major diameter to match , which is less work than drilling and tapping the frame for pin keeps and then turning, polishing and fitting pins.
Major thread diameter reduction is common practice when I'm fitting barrel threads to actions/frames so that one is not getting a false load indication at draw up.
I can't see how a pin has any more accuracy potential than a properly fit screw.

M. De Land said:

Why would pins fit the hammer and trigger pivot/frame holes any more accurately than properly fitting screws and thus increase performance ?

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Well, of course purpose made pins can be "fitted" to the particular frame and part whereas the mass produced screw is made "within" tolerances. Not to mention, many times the factory screw / screw-pin has a certain amount of warp to it. If it's enough of a warp and the screw / screw-pin becomes loose, it can cause a close tolerance revolver to malfunction. The problem can be exacerbated if the frame holes aren't square. So several factors can add up to work against the targeted setup. That, in and of itself, is the main reason the interference pins are a popular addition. The 3 screws you don't want to come loose can't!!
So, the "counterbore" for the screw-pin head is a large support for the pin and the other end of the pin is fitted to the existing "pin hole " in the frame. The threaded portion doesn't play in to the equation. The "part bearing" section can of course be fitted to the hole in the trigger for a "zero tolerance" fit and of course if it's a little proud of the frame support hole, it can be reduced to fit. Therefore, each end of the "action pin" can be fitted to its supporting hole and the mid section bearing the part (trigger or bolt) can be fitted as needed / desired. That's how the action pin can allow a more accurate fit (even if the frame holes aren't true). The added benefits are no screw driver slot to bugger up and the clean, smooth surfaces!!

M. De Land said:

. . . which is less work than drilling and tapping the frame for pin keeps and then turning, polishing and fitting pins.

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The pins that "lock in" the action pins are a variation of my "interference pins" and they "float" so there's no tapping. The ends of the i.p.'s engage a groove in the a.p.'s which allows them to just slide in or out with ease. As long as there's a back strap and trigger guard in place, the a.p.'s aren't going anywhere.

Mike

45D said:

Well as stated, it's a custom "option" so . . . but likewise, it's interesting that (apparently) given the option, you'd choose "less mechanical accuracy" and ease of assembly / disassembly . . .
Care to offer "why"? Just trying to understand "potential customer base" with something "new".

Mike

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Been shooting and taking them apart for right at 60 years and never had any issues with the screws . I'm old school and like them just like they came when they were new , if I didn't I'd just shoot modern stuff. Don't have an issue with anyone building them like that and I do recognize the talent it takes to do so but it's just not something I crave. When my eyes were still good I could cut cloverleafs all day long with my Belgian 1960 at 25 yards and shoot 50 4 or 5x 's at 50 yards . I don't think pins instead of screws would have caused me to have shot any better.

Eddie Southgate said:

Been shooting and taking them apart for right at 60 years and never had any issues with the screws . I'm old school and like them just like they came when they were new , if I didn't I'd just shoot modern stuff. Don't have an issue with anyone building them like that and I do recognize the talent it takes to do so but it's just not something I crave. When my eyes were still good I could cut cloverleafs all day long with my Belgian 1960 at 25 yards and shoot 50 4 or 5x 's at 50 yards . I don't think pins instead of screws would have caused me to have shot any better.

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Thank you for responding and I agree, it wouldn't make you shoot better. "Mechanical accuracy" is purely about the mechanics of the operation of the action ( longevity) . . . and the "Screwless" ( no slots) aspect is purely a "distinctive" (rarity) or "exclusive" feature few revolvers will ever have. Definitely not for everybody.

Mike