Making a wedge for the 1860

[M. De Land]

M. DeLand,
What brand and which revolver did your factory wedge come from? I just this week measured one for my Uberti Navy and got 2° also. .035/inch=2°. I'm wondering if the different platforms use different angles?
I made one like a Pocket police wedge with a clearance groove for the screw, and tempered to a straw color. I don't remember what O1 Rockwells at that temp.
Rich, M., do you guys think that's too hard? Seems Ok, but I haven't shot it much. I have a couple to make, I can always temper at a higher temperature with the

I make wedges as well and have a few different opinions from your thinking.
1. All factory wedges I have checked with a machinist protractor register 5 degrees .
2. The front of the barrel slots are irrelevant all they need do is stay clear of the wedge front so as not to impede full support at the front of the arbor slot. The rear barrel slots carry the load and need to be square with one another.
3. Thickness is important if fit in parallel to the arbor slot width as it helps support the lug pins against torque from bullet rotation and when fit up snug helps support the wedge from backing out.
4. No spring is needed on a wedge to hold it captive . All that is needed is to ball mill a slot in the top with a blind end to stop at the keep screw when withdrawn . This is also where full wedge thickness works on your behalf as it will not flop up and down as much when fully withdrawn..
I use both A-2 and O-1 the later being much easier to heat treat but shows more heat distortion in precision parts .
Click on photos to enlar

M. DeLand,
What brand and which revolver did your factory wedge come from? I just this week measured one for my Uberti Navy and got 2° also. .035/inch=2°. I'm wondering if the different platforms use different angles?
I made one like a Pocket police wedge with a clearance groove for the screw, and tempered to a straw color. I don't remember what O1 Rockwells at that temp.
Rich, M., do you guys think that's too hard? Seems Ok, but I haven't shot it much. I have a couple to make, I can always temper at a higher temperature with the new ones

80's model 60 Pietta and another model 60 from a Spanish firm I can't remember off the top I made a wedge for. The picture shows the mark on the protractor at 85 degrees if you look close at bottom middle. You can see to the left of the leg it is between 85 and 90 on the degree face.
I'll get out the protractor and take some larger pictures tomorrow and check some of my other models of open frame guns. Could be some of the other models are different than 5 degrees.

 

[Rich44]

Pete 453 - I made one like a Pocket police wedge with a clearance groove for the screw, and tempered to a straw color. I don't remember what O1 Rockwells at that temp.
Rich, M., do you guys think that's too hard? Seems Ok, but I haven't shot it much. I have a couple to make, I can always temper at a higher temperature with the new ones


Thanks for your comments. The wedge for the 1860 is a very simple device, no moving parts just a little chunk of steel. Using a tool steel like O-1 it should last forever in this purpose on the cap and ball. Your concern about what color to draw back - If the color was light straw you are close to around 60-62 rc, if darker straw maybe 58-60rc. While not bad, it is a little harder than needed. The harder it is it may crack or fracture. If you have doubts put the wedge in Mom's oven at 475-500 for 1/2 hour and that will make it great.

 

[Hlane]

Wow, super! You could charge a goodly amount for these; I bet you'd get a fine number of requests if you offered these; Some mfgr. who could spit out a few dozen a week would clean up, and the 'shipping' isn't a problem; just a small padded mailer. Nice work!!

I agree, a proper wedge would be nice!

 

[Pete453]

80's model 60 Pietta and another model 60 from a Spanish firm I can't remember off the top I made a wedge for. The picture shows the mark on the protractor at 85 degrees if you look close at bottom middle. You can see to the left of the leg it is between 85 and 90 on the degree face.
I'll get out the protractor and take some larger pictures tomorrow and check some of my other models of open frame guns. Could be some of the other models are different than 5 degrees.

I believe you, I have the same protractor. Thanks for the reply.

Pete 453 - I made one like a Pocket police wedge with a clearance groove for the screw, and tempered to a straw color. I don't remember what O1 Rockwells at that temp.
Rich, M., do you guys think that's too hard? Seems Ok, but I haven't shot it much. I have a couple to make, I can always temper at a higher temperature with the new ones


Thanks for your comments. The wedge for the 1860 is a very simple device, no moving parts just a little chunk of steel. Using a tool steel like O-1 it should last forever in this purpose on the cap and ball. Your concern about what color to draw back - If the color was light straw you are close to around 60-62 rc, if darker straw maybe 58-60rc. While not bad, it is a little harder than needed. The harder it is it may crack or fracture. If you have doubts put the wedge in Mom's oven at 475-500 for 1/2 hour and that will make it great.

Thanks Rich. I have a couple more I'm making, I'll throw it in with them. I had a sleeve from some O1 with the tempering info but it's gone. I mostly make knives and such, so I don't usually need the complete info. Looks like I'll have to scare up a chart or newer machinist handbook. Thanks again

 

[M. De Land]

I believe you, I have the same protractor. Thanks for the reply.


Thanks Rich. I have a couple more I'm making, I'll throw it in with them. I had a sleeve from some O1 with the tempering info but it's gone. I mostly make knives and such, so I don't usually need the complete info. Looks like I'll have to scare up a chart or newer machinist handbook. Thanks again

You can bring up the heat treat protocol on line and hand print it out for any alloy.

 

[necchi]

You can bring up the heat treat protocol on line and hand print it out for any alloy.

Yeah, but @Rich44 didn't. He just showed how he does it.

Thank you for sharing your skill's with us @Rich44

 

[TDM]

Excellent work @Rich44 !

 

[M. De Land]

Yeah, but @Rich44 didn't. He just showed how he does it.

Thank you for sharing your skill's with us @Rich44

I was talking to Pete who said he needed a new chart for tempering .

 

[M. De Land]

M. DeLand,
What brand and which revolver did your factory wedge come from? I just this week measured one for my Uberti Navy and got 2° also. .035/inch=2°. I'm wondering if the different platforms use different angles?
I made one like a Pocket police wedge with a clearance groove for the screw, and tempered to a straw color. I don't remember what O1 Rockwells at that temp.
Rich, M., do you guys think that's too hard? Seems Ok, but I haven't shot it much. I have a couple to make, I can always temper at a higher temperature with the new ones

I did some more protractor measurements tonight on different open frame models as I said I would and the new Pietta 51 is a few minutes over 2 degrees the Uberti Walker a bit over 3 degrees, the Navy arm model 62 made by Uberti in the 70s is 3 degrees and a brass 51 is 2 degrees.
I remeasure my early Pietta replacement wedge made probably 15 years ago and it protracted a few minutes shy of 2 degrees so I had it wrong on my Pietta 60 from memory.
The 60 in the first post picture is 5 degrees.

 

[Notchy Bob]

Dang, you guys are good!

I’ll tell you something else… This increases my already tremendous respect for those old gunsmiths and machinists of the 19th century, who made parts like this, in quantity, and made them fit, without the benefit of electricity.

I will admit that I started reading this thread with the same question others posted, namely “It’s a small part. Why not just buy one?“ However, the explanation provided was very nicely stated.

Great thread, fellows.

Notchy Bob

 

[Rich44]

Dang, you guys are good!

I’ll tell you something else… This increases my already tremendous respect for those old gunsmiths and machinists of the 19th century, who made parts like this, in quantity, and made them fit, without the benefit of electricity.

This reminds me of my Dad. He could make me anything with so little amount of tools. I really miss watching my Dad.

I will admit that I started reading this thread with the same question others posted, namely “It’s a small part. Why not just buy one?“ However, the explanation provided was very nicely stated.

Great thread, fellows.

Notchy Bob

I completely agree, felt funny even making this post about making a wedge. It's just the simplest of parts with no moving parts. And felt like I was making a big deal about it. But as can be seen there has been some good input. And I respect each person's giving of their ideas on how they do it. Who would believe there are so many ways to skin the cat (where did we get that saying) or just make a simple part. Thanks for your comment Bob

 

[Rich44]

This posting is about done and I would like to say that I was impressed with one idea M. De land has submitted. While not an original Colt design it is very cleaver in that it eliminates the need for the spring. By leaving the left side open and closing the right side. Such a simple approach, with the wedge still captured by the screw. This is his picture showing bottom wedge for example.

 

[45D]

This posting is about done and I would like to say that I was impressed with one idea M. De land has submitted. While not an original Colt design it is very cleaver in that it eliminates the need for the spring. By leaving the left side open and closing the right side. Such a simple approach, with the wedge still captured by the screw. This is his picture showing bottom wedge for example.

View attachment 256378

Ah, but it is a Colt design.
Pocket guns had them as well a '72 Open Tops.

Silly me!! The very revolvers I'm working on have the '72 / RM version. This is off a RM.

Mike

 

[Dude]

I'm feeling better about making my own wedge. Thanks, guys!

As for angling the sides of the wedge, I see no reason both sides should be angled. Angling only the front side is necessary since it contacts only one point - the front of the arbor slot. It won't hurt anything to angle both sides, but isn't necessary. Angling both sides would only cause the wedge to not sit exactly square to the side of the barrel. Not a big deal - as if you'd even notice!

 

[Rich44]

Ah, but it is a Colt design.
Pocket guns had them as well a '72 Open Tops.

Make one wrong move on this Forum and they shoot you dead, what do I know anyway.

 

[M. De Land]

Make one wrong move on this Forum and they shoot you dead, what do I know anyway.

Ah Rich, that's were developing a hide like a water buffalo helps out! I Iearn so much from hearing others ideas and methods to challenge my own so as to improve my own body of knowledge it's well worth the occasional knock in the head to my ego when/ if I get something wrong ! Some of the ideas presented here are good and worth adopting and some are solutions in search of a problem but as long as they cause no regression of safety it's all good.
I so appreciate your contribution to the discussion. Good job !

 

[M. De Land]

I'm feeling better about making my own wedge. Thanks, guys!

As for angling the sides of the wedge, I see no reason both sides should be angled. Angling only the front side is necessary since it contacts only one point - the front of the arbor slot. It won't hurt anything to angle both sides, but isn't necessary. Angling both sides would only cause the wedge to not sit exactly square to the side of the barrel. Not a big deal - as if you'd even notice!

It is better/stronger to have both sides of the back edge of the wedge supporting the rear barrel notches evenly either side of the thrust line . Same deal as two lug support in bolt action guns as opposed to one lug !
The other thing is the wedge will eventually cant in the arbor slot until both rear notches make contact and that will shift the front of the wedge contact with the arbor slot front to the side.

 

[Pete453]

It’s a small part. Why not just buy one?“

I've heard this a hundred times. Sometimes I make things because I don't want to wait, or I can make it cheaper or higher quality. They aren't that difficult and could be made with only a hacksaw and a file if necessary.

 

[oncewas]

Well Rich44 I am impressed. Good job.

​

 

[M. De Land]

I've heard this a hundred times. Sometimes I make things because I don't want to wait, or I can make it cheaper or higher quality. They aren't that difficult and could be made with only a hacksaw and a file if necessary.

Yup, the prototypes were all made with a file and case hardened by heat colors.
They (wedges) are simple but oh so important if made ,heat treated and fitted correctly !
I often look around me in the shop and see all the high tech machinery and hand tools to make my life easier in gun work and think of my ancestors that didn't even always have a file to start with. They made the tools and the whole gun, lock, stock and barrel by hand from nothing, some of them even smelting the iron from the ground. Now those folks were truly Gunsmiths !