My latest daydream: A Kibler escopeta ...

Art, I firmly believe Jim Kibler can make whatever firearm he takes a notion to and hit it out of the park on the first pitch.

Simple . If Jim Kibler thinks I will sell he may produce it, if not he won’t. He is a businessman after all.

It will sell….. sorry.

BillinOregon said:

Art, I firmly believe Jim Kibler can make whatever firearm he takes a notion to and hit it out of the park on the first pitch.

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Yes, of course, but the engineering, planning, study, set-up, and marketing to do a limited, niche musket? Not at all feasible financially. The few enactors that want one can just buy the one from the Dixie catalog, and leave Jim to mfg. something that has a bit of demand!

First I think their a neat gun. Do I think Jim would do a kit ? No and the same reason he won't make his SMR percussion. HE doesn't want to..! Even though he would have a lot of buyer's. JMPO

Well, Art, you must have an inside line speaking for Jim as you do.
Of course I realize such a project would have to pencil out, and I have no idea what the demand for it would be, but I also believe that if such a kit were available and it dawned on American muzzleloader shooters what a significant role the miquelet-lock escopeta played in this continent's history, new interest would arise. Again, it's a matter of raising awareness and frankly, doing basic education. And I believe that enthusiasm would grow once shooters got a chance to see and handle one of these arms in person and learn its capabilities.
I don't find an escopeta with miquelet lock on the Dixie Web site -- just an overpriced Pedersoli copy of the .69 flintlock Spanish musket.

Someone needs to lend one to the guy in Texas, Chris Hersh? I probably spelled his name wrong, he has the flintlock castings company.

mikesto44 said:

First I think their a neat gun. Do I think Jim would do a kit ? No and the same reason he won't make his SMR percussion. HE doesn't want to..! Even though he would have a lot of buyer's. JMPO

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He can't to make a copy of every small-demand musket or rifle that every cotton-pickin' guy thinks up....he's a very small operation, and offers already, kits heads and shoulders above what the traditional companies have always offered; stocks that need a huge amount of work to look good, and which are too complex for the average guy that's not a dedicated builder. Sourcing such a lock would alone force the cost way above a reasonable price point.

BillinOregon said:

Well, Art, you must have an inside line speaking for Jim as you do.
Of course I realize such a project would have to pencil out, and I have no idea what the demand for it would be, but I also believe that if such a kit were available and it dawned on American muzzleloader shooters what a significant role the miquelet-lock escopeta played in this continent's history, new interest would arise. Again, it's a matter of raising awareness and frankly, doing basic education. And I believe that enthusiasm would grow once shooters got a chance to see and handle one of these arms in person and learn its capabilities.
I don't find an escopeta with miquelet lock on the Dixie Web site -- just an overpriced Pedersoli copy of the .69 flintlock Spanish musket.

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Good grief, I have no connection with Mr. Kibler whatsoever; I'm just a person interested in the muzzleloading field, and enjoy this site particularly. Common sense tells you that, in today's world, producing such a specialized item for a tiny number of potential buyers is not possible.

springfield art said:

He can't to make a copy of every small-demand musket or rifle that every cotton-pickin' guy thinks up....he's a very small operation, and offers already, kits heads and shoulders above what the traditional companies have always offered; stocks that need a huge amount of work to look good, and which are too complex for the average guy that's not a dedicated builder. Sourcing such a lock would alone force the cost way above a reasonable price point.

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HE can make or not make whatever he wishes; if a tiny group of guys want a Spanish Musket, have one of the India-made distributors dun the factories in India for one. Or, start your own website dedicated to the subject, and gin up enough interest to generate demand; it would be a useless quest, in my opinion, but then I'm nobody, just sayin'.

BillinOregon said:

Art, I firmly believe Jim Kibler can make whatever firearm he takes a notion to and hit it out of the park on the first pitch.

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Jim has stated in his videos that his interest is in English based smoothbores.
I do like the Spanish style smoothbores, however as well .

The escopeta is an interesting gun that I knew almost nothing about until this thread. I'm sure my wife's ancestors were very familiar with them... they arrived in San Antonio in 1731. Family members were in the local militia, a Ranger-type company.
I've known Chris Hirsch for a long time, mostly thru music, but lately thru ML stuff as well. I emailed him about this. I doubt he has any Spanish miquelet lock/parts, but I asked.
And you are right, @BillinOregon . This a a huge part of American history that is greatly ignored.

It’s the bummer about our hobby being so niche but us being so excited about the details. There isn’t a big enough market to sell most types of these guns, that aren’t custom hand made examples. If there was, we’d have a good off the shelf wheellock!

Songwriter, I have a hunch that once awakened, there would be a sizable audience interested in escopetas in Texas, Arizona, New Mexico, California and possibly Florida.
Art, it might make sense to "dun" some of the Indian houses on the subject or ask Loyalist or Charles at Veteran Arms to help with the cause. But a Kibler would be done right out of the gate.

BillinOregon said:

Songwriter, I have a hunch that once awakened, there would be a sizable audience interested in escopetas in Texas, Arizona, New Mexico, California and possibly Florida.
Art, it might make sense to "dun" some of the Indian houses on the subject or ask Loyalist or Charles at Veteran Arms to help with the cause. But a Kibler would be done right out of the gate.

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Kibler seems to be making classical American smooth bores and rifles; once you get into the Military Arms, it's a whole 'nother ball game, and that includes the guys who want them; re-enactors, etc., it's simply a different market. The best way would be what BillinOregon said, Indian houses, Loyalist, etc. If there's a real demand, (theoretically), get a hundred guys to front a thousand dollars apiece up front in a legal account, and say to a supplier, we got a hundred grand proving demand. Then if it gets turned down, return the money! Simple. I realize this is theory only, but how difficult would it be to just simply re-enact with the current Dixie/Pedersoli musket? It's just a hobby, past-time, fun historical re-enacting, after all. (I re-enacted Rev War for ten years and didn't once give a hoot about the shape of some tiny part on my Jap musket!) (Joke; next some guy will want a copy of the multi-barrel gun Jim Bowie used in John Wayne's 'Alamo', and will demanding Kibler make them, too! Joke only!

Bill: LOL Thanks for starting this Thread. Actually, some really good replies from Members.

These Spanish style guns with their miquelet locks are still a niche in the muzzle loading fraternity. I don't believe an escopeta style "kit" will be offered anytime in the near future, unless ordered from TRS.

I don't believe we can garner more interest in these guns as a kit till someone can offer a "finished" in the white lock, at a quality similar to a fowler lock from Chambers, Davis, etc. To me, this is where the development/interest would have to start. The finished lock could satisfy the requirement for the customer to then approach one of the true custom builders. If the sale of the finished locks continue strong for a couple years, one could imagine an eventual kit being offered to the market. But I believe the finished lock is where things have to start.

Rick

Rick, you are absolutely correct. It all starts with a well-designed and built lock. Once one becomes available, finding a source to cast buttplate, trigger guard and barrel bands would not be difficult, and a CNC stock shaping and inletting program could be written.
I see this as more than just building a reasonably historic replica for a niche audience. I see it as an opportunity to re-open the door to an important era in North American history that has been forsaken for reasons unknown to me. (Remember when we in the muzzleloading community took pride in our role in bringing the past to life for the benefit of the public?)
Some of this is personal. I have always been interested in the history of place, and now this damned Englishman (genetically speaking) is moving back to where my heart lies -- enchanted New Mexico with her centuries-long periods of light and darkness and wonder, where the ghosts of Puebloan peoples dance with the ghosts of priests and conquistadors and the food is just bloody excellent.

Bill: If you move back to NM (don't blame you) then for sure you will need an escopeta. LOL

Rick

BillinOregon said:

Yeah, yeah, yeah, laugh all you want. But I have been thinking about escopetas ahead of moving back to New Mexico and it occurred to me that if there was decent demand for one -- and a decent miquelet lock was available-- I bet Jim could sell dozens of them. Once you get up off the floor and your sides don't hurt any more, share your thoughts.
It continues to bug me that the Spanish occupation of North America gets almost zero attention.

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Dear Bill. I don't laugh I've made an Escopeta ,Catalan Stock more Spanish border guard but typical enough' Escopeta ' .Only did it to put an original Belt hook into historic prospective . I seem to recall some on display at the Santa Fe Museum .Then that 1840s Matchlock pops up in gun books . Santa Fe was the only town I went too in New Mexico Might have gone to Tous? with a friend who lived in Santa Fe memorys faded.I do remember flying NZ to Denver then a little rubber band plane into Santa Fe I couldn't get to phone him so kipped under the stars in the Pucka brush. He had gone to Alberkirki as he reckoned " Nobody flys to Santa Fe ! " Got some kind of fever 102 degree tempreture didnt like that not keen on fevers had too many in Africa. How ever I digress . Kibler Escopetas ? .Why not Bill is right in a general way while WE may not be so numerous as the early takeing up again muzzle loading . If of course they never did stop being made & used them but we today seem to have a more discerning & studied level of ML Shooters hence the Kibler & similar offerings & more going more into other sorts of guns other than the long rifles & the "Gotta get a Hawken faze " & weve come a long way from Blue grass locks & The Hacker Martin options not wishing to disparage either .Ile admit ime a flintlock snob, I don't have nor seek factory made stuff I.ve rolled my own since a teenager like many another my first guns where' Uglee .But with time I improuved you'd expect that After well over 200 . Made in & scattered across many lands .
.Rudyards Take on such things

Let’s all charter a flight to Italy or Spain, visit some gunmakers, and hang out and be generally obnoxious until they agree to produce one so we will go home.