Importance of ‘load development’ to find the BEST group!

necchi · Oct 3, 2023

longcruise said:
Statistically, a three shot group is worthless. Shooting them in a random pattern does not make them any more so. Reliable accuracy testing needs more than 3 shots per group.

Yeah, but we're not shooting for accuracy when working the load variable of the combination.
5grn increments with BP is a standard not random and as demonstrated is quit telling and useful.
Once that area of "harmonic balance" aka; the sweet spot,, is found the shooter can go back and work/tweak the other variables of the load within that sweet spot, even varying the load +/-2grns. But patch thickness/ lube properties/human conditions of the load and sight adjustment are all what's done to get "accuracy".
The Load Development technique as @Flint62Smoothie shares with us here will get a feller much closer too accuracy, much sooner than;
"What's the max load for my gun?"

p.s. It's way different than loading CF, where 1/10 of a Grn can be huge!

smo · Oct 3, 2023

The

getting deep now!

Here’s just another turn of the monkey wrench for y’all…

I would tend to believe that barrel heating would come into play more so with a smoothbore than a heavy octagon rifle barrel….

Carry on ….

JBird · Oct 3, 2023

Bloke on the range did a few videos years back about "3 shot groups" particularly among center fire guns. Interesting math going on

dave951 · Oct 3, 2023

longcruise said:
That's all well and good . I agree with your reasons for the assertion and think that all of it will likely effect accuracy but that's only a theory without being proofed by testing.

Also pretty sure it would be a minor if even noticeable effect on muzzzleloaders that are typically shot as most are at a much slower rate of fire.

I have to wonder what esoteric methodology is applied by BPCR shooters to determine the the exact location of an invisible vibration node on the barrel I've had occasion to watch BPCR shooters at my club. Regular monthly matches are held there and there have been quite a few high level competitions run there. Every single shooter has always rested their barrel on the cross sticks right at the Muzzle. As close to the Muzzle as possible. Nothing to do with nodes, it's all about minimizing the effects of any movement of the rifle and shooter .

If you shoot at a slow pace, it makes sense to have the test conditions approximate that. We shoot much faster and I can confirm it does make a difference. My dad has a 3 band Enfield and in testing at our pace, it will string at about 45deg up to the right. Slow down and let the gun chill a bit between shots and the group is about the same size but much more circular.

As for BPCR, there are uToob videos on how to find the nodes on a barrel, one involves putting the receiver in a vise and gently tapping and listening. It will change sound like a tuning fork. There are others but ideally, the most accurate load has the node right near the muzzle. That's why you see guys putting the rifle on the sticks near the muzzle. Others may find the best node is elsewhere and will rest the barrel accordingly

longcruise · Oct 3, 2023

@JBird perfect example

longcruise · Oct 3, 2023

dave951 said:
That's why you see guys putting the rifle on the sticks near the muzzle. Others may find the best node is elsewhere and will rest the barrel accordingly

Funny, cause that's not what they say. They are clear on the fact that it's done because the further forward the rest, the less influence by movement at the utterly end.

A ml cross stick shooter at a match told me the same thing. I tried it and my targets improved considerably.

Wonder what the cross stick shooters at friendship do??

dave951 · Oct 4, 2023

longcruise said:
Funny, cause that's not what they say. They are clear on the fact that it's done because the further forward the rest, the less influence by movement at the utterly end.

A ml cross stick shooter at a match told me the same thing. I tried it and my targets improved considerably.

Wonder what the cross stick shooters at friendship do??

Ask the guys shooting at the Quigley. But here's a couple links on the subject-

http://www.historicshooting.com/thread-3054-post-30747.html#pid30747
https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...istency-when-shooting-a-buffalo-rifle.921469/
https://shilohrifle.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=27226&start=15

longcruise · Oct 4, 2023

Well, I got the information I cited directly from top level international competitors. I'll go with that.

French Colonial · Oct 4, 2023

On BPCRS rifles I had my best results holding the rifle suspended by the wrist with one hand and tapping the barrel with a rawhide mallet with the other. You will find a spot where the rifles barrel does not vibrate, mark it with a piece of tape (I used a white permanent marker) and that is where you set the barrel on the cross sticks.

I have not used cross sticks with full stock ML rifles (all I have) but doubt it would work because of the woods contact with the barrel and barrel pins etc.

Flint62Smoothie · Jan 25, 2024

You know how I always recommend Load Development to find YOUR best load?

A guy’s been following my posts and he finally took my advice … take a look! In only 12-shots he found the BEST ‘target’ load!

He fired them as I advise, randomly shooting a different grain load, but at the correct target, as this negates any bias or one getting tired. But it also forces you to ‘focus’. [Tip - I have few dozen plastic ‘test tubes’ & I fill the powder charges at home.]

Let’s just say they’re a firm believer of this method now!

Benched, 25Y

Offhand, 25Y

longcruise · Jan 25, 2024

Mmmmmm... Still not sold.

Flint62Smoothie · Jan 25, 2024

GriscomRun · Mar 27, 2024

Your point is well made. And justified. I have used the same procedure for decades when hand loading modern rifles. No different in ML.

Flint62Smoothie · Oct 16, 2024

More proof that load development works! I’ll spare you the load development target, but here’s some proof, albeit I need to tap the front sight to the left a tad, to move the group right a bit.

This was 3-shots, 50-yards benched, 80-grns 3Fg, in a 54-cal using mink oiled red-striped pillow ticking patches.

AZ Muzzleloaders · Oct 16, 2024

For the nay sayers, borrow Flint62's rifle and see if you get a different result. I use a similar method.

ronaldrothb49 · Oct 16, 2024

longcruise said:
Funny, cause that's not what they say. They are clear on the fact that it's done because the further forward the rest, the less influence by movement at the utterly end.

A ml cross stick shooter at a match told me the same thing. I tried it and my targets improved considerably.

Wonder what the cross stick shooters at friendship do??

I shot Cross Sticks and Light Bench for many years. Any rifle I used had to shoot at least a 1" or better group. I will admit I don't know anything about physics or for that matter geometry I just did what worked. I would test different loads to find the best one. The barrel rested on the sticks at the end and some shooters would even have a stop on the barrel so it rested on the same place every time. In my experience I got better accuracy with a warm barrel, I never shot the first relay for score that was only to warm the barrel up. With my loading routine I did the same thing every time. The first pic is 100 yard Cross Stick the 2nd pic is an offhand flintlock I built a couple years ago, the first shots from it.

longcruise · Oct 16, 2024

Very impressive targets.

Importance of ‘load development’ to find the BEST group!

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