Unknown smoothbore caplock. European proofs.

wstiles1 · Oct 15, 2024

Good evening folks. I was hoping for some help identifying this old musket. It appears to be Civil War era, but there is no maker's name that I can find. It looks like there are some European proofs but I can't identify them online. I have a book coming but it's a couple weeks out. I'm leaning towards a Belgian import like a Piedmont, but I'm unsure. Any help would be appreciated.

Loyalist Dave · Oct 15, 2024

Um... I'm going to say that looks like one of those 1842 Augustin (Austrian) tube-lock muskets that were converted to caplock and then sold for the American Civil War (ACW).

LD

Grayrock Volunteer · Oct 16, 2024

It's a Prussian M1809/12 UM, or as more commonly referred to in the US a M1809/39 or Potsdam musket. The 1844D on the barrel is the year of percussion alteration and letter code for the Danzig Arsenal.

wstiles1 · Oct 16, 2024

I appreciate the responses. Grayrock, do you have any reference websites that I can further research? Or any further info on the markings? I really appreciate your effort.

Grayrock Volunteer · Oct 16, 2024

wstiles1 said:
I appreciate the responses. Grayrock, do you have any reference websites that I can further research? Or any further info on the markings? I really appreciate your effort.

I don't know if a particularly good write up on them online. I can pull some figures for you this week if you like. About 165,000 "Prussian" muskets were purchased by the US Ordnance Department during the Civil War. A little over 100,000 of them were described as smoothbores like this one.

The buttplate on your's is a replacement that was likely added when the gun was converted to percussion to replace the excessively worn original brass buttplate.

The markings on the buttplate are also Prussian and identify the gun as #219 of the 4th Landwehr Regiment, 1st Company.

If you care to buy a book that covers them "European Arms in the Civil War" by Schwalm and Hofmann is very good. Kruger's "The Potsdam Musket" is also a decent source of information and is pretty much specific to the Model 1809/12.

hawkeye2 · Oct 16, 2024

You are fortunate that it retains the sights, most have been removed along with the swivels. Correct Brown Bess swivels (Rifle Shoppe) are very close replacements. The rammer is a replacement, again the Rifle Shoppe has the correct one. The bayonet retaining latch is also missing, Rifle Shoppe again.
Nominal .71" caliber and they are good shooters. The first muzzleloader I ever shot, about 65 years ago, was a Potsdam and I still have it.

wstiles1 · Oct 17, 2024

Grayrock Volunteer said:
I don't know if a particularly good write up on them online. I can pull some figures for you this week if you like. About 165,000 "Prussian" muskets we're purchased by the US Ordnance Department during the Civil War. A little over 100,000 of them were described as smoothbores like this one.

The buttplate on your's is a replacement that was likely added when the gun was converted to percussion to replace the excessively worn original brass buttplate.

The markings on the buttplate are also Prussian and identify the gun as #219 of the 4th Landwehr Regiment, 1st Company.

If you care to buy a book that covers them "European Arms in the Civil War" by Schwalm and Hofmann is very good. Kruger's "The Potsdam Musket" is also a decent source of information and is pretty much specific to the Model 1809/12.

That would be wonderful if it's not putting you out. I really do appreciate the effort.

wstiles1 · Oct 17, 2024

hawkeye2 said:
You are fortunate that it retains the sights, most have been removed along with the swivels. Correct Brown Bess swivels (Rifle Shoppe) are very close replacements. The rammer is a replacement, again the Rifle Shoppe has the correct one. The bayonet retaining latch is also missing, Rifle Shoppe again.
Nominal .71" caliber and they are good shooters. The first muzzleloader I ever shot, about 65 years ago, was a Potsdam and I still have it.

The Rifle Shoppe seems to be a great source for parts. Thanks. The stuff I need will cost more than the musket itself. I paid $100 for it. I figured I couldn't go wrong even if I didn't know what it was. LOL.

hawkeye2 · Oct 17, 2024

You stole it for $100, cleaned up, with a good bore and parts replaced it'll bring from 7 to 9. A lot of skirmishers shoot them.

wstiles1 · Oct 17, 2024

hawkeye2 said:
You stole it for $100, cleaned up, with a good bore and parts replaced it'll bring from 7 to 9. A lot of skirmishers shoot them.

I did the conservation to it already. After some reading, it seems to have likely been issued to Ohio militia. I have a CW bayonet, frog, belt buckle, belt and some other things that were in the family. I haven't really looked into the bayonet so I'm hoping it is the correct one for the Potsdam.

hawkeye2 · Oct 17, 2024

The bayonet is 21.5" overall and has a distinct socket and a triangular blade with a slightly concave grind on the bottom sides.

wstiles1 · Oct 17, 2024

hawkeye2 said:
The bayonet is 21.5" overall and has a distinct socket and a triangular blade with a slightly concave grind on the bottom sides.

Well, the one I have is a Springfield.

Clark Badgett · Oct 20, 2024

hawkeye2 said:
The bayonet is 21.5" overall and has a distinct socket and a triangular blade with a slightly concave grind on the bottom sides.

That bayonet seems to be one of those that used a spring tab that protruded from the muzzle end of the stock to lock it in place. I’ve seen French and English examples of such. It wouldn’t surprise me if other Europeans copied the idea.

hawkeye2 · Oct 20, 2024

Clark Badgett said:
That bayonet seems to be one of those that used a spring tab that protruded from the muzzle end of the stock to lock it in place. I’ve seen French and English examples of such. It wouldn’t surprise me if other Europeans copied the idea.

It does and the tab looks like a spade when viewed from below. If, like me, one tries the bayonet on without freeing up the tab one will have quite a time getting it off. The catch will be frozen into the wood from rust even in a very good specimen and the barrel and nose cap should come off to free the catch first.

Clark Badgett · Oct 20, 2024

hawkeye2 said:
It does and the tab looks like a spade when viewed from below. If, like me, one tries the bayonet on without freeing up the tab one will have quite a time getting it off. The catch will be frozen into the wood from rust even in a very good specimen and the barrel and nose cap should come off to free the catch first.

Yikes

wstiles1 · Oct 22, 2024

Thanks for all of the info. Now to get all of the missing parts and make this baby whole again. Any lead on an original bayonet would be appreciated. I had to order the books because my library who wants a 200 mil levy to pass had no way to get them. But they did have a prominently displayed book entitled "Boobs" at the front door that was readily available. Not that I'm opposed to boobs.

Grayrock Volunteer · Oct 24, 2024

wstiles1 said:
Thanks for all of the info. Now to get all of the missing parts and make this baby whole again. Any lead on an original bayonet would be appreciated. I had to order the books because my library who wants a 200 mil levy to pass had no way to get them. But they did have a prominently displayed book entitled "Boobs" at the front door that was readily available. Not that I'm opposed to boobs.

Unless you trust a seller to take good measurements of a bayonet socket for you you'd be much better off trying them out in person. The muskets and bayonets were all hand made and hand fit, and won't freely interchange.
The Mansfield Civil War show is the first weekend of May each year and would be a good place to try some out.

hawkeye2 · Oct 24, 2024

Any Potsdam bayonet (see post 11) will fit, they are interchangeable. They are out there but it will take some searching.

wstiles1 · Oct 25, 2024

Thanks guys.

Unknown smoothbore caplock. European proofs.

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