Was Dutch right about wiping between shots?

If I was a ML bench shooter shooting a heavy bench gun................ I might use Dutch's method

But I am not, read olskool and mulebrains posts again, and again until it sinks in, people over complicate things.

I use a lubed patch on my ball. that is all the whiping down that you need, have shot 200 rnds without an extra cleaning. any time you do a cleaning without a load in the chamber you risk a missfire on your next shot. I do shoot percussion though.

tenngun said:

I find 1/16 prone to misfires, I like 5/64 or 3/32
A cavet is that TC used a patent breach and I have heard, not known for myself, that these can have fouling issues

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I fully agree with tenngun.
I, too, like a 5/64 or 3/32 touch hole. Also, I have never had a gun with a "patent breech", but I have often heard that people have problems with them. Nor, have I ever had a gun with a vent liner. I agree with Ravenshear that a vent liner was originally a repair for a vent that has so burnt out and enlarged that it needs replacement, which is what a vent liner does.
In our modern times with muzzleloading being recreation or a hobby, wiping between each shot is perfectly okay. However, back in the times when a muzzleloader was the only kind of firearm available, it would be unlikely that people wiped between each shot, especially not military personnel during a battle.
The touch hole should be in the middle of a straight line across the top of the pan. Not down nearer the bottom of the pan. Very little priming powder is needed. Do not fill the pan with priming. Just a bit in the end of the pan away from the touch hole seems to work best, in most cases. You can prime with 4F or you can simply prime with whatever powder you use as your main charge, be it 2F or 3F. Personally, both my load and my prime are the same 3F, and I prime directly from my powder horn, thereby eliminating the need to carry a priming device. But, to each their own on that score.
A vent pick is a handy item. I don't pick between every shot, but I do use it often enough to make sure of a clear passage from the priming to the main charge.
I make my vent picks very easily. A simple paper clip with one end straightened out works just fine for a vent pick. I have also made them by putting a thin nail in the end of a 1/4 or 3/16 dowel, or even just a piece of a stick, cutting off the nail head and filing it to make a slight, dull point. Instead of patches, I keep a vent pick in the patchbox on my rifle.
Good luck in getting your problem solved.

Dutch was fundamentally right.

Grenadier1758 said:

It is worthwhile to take a look at this cutaway of a T/C breech plug with snail for the nipple seat.

View attachment 243863

We can see the bell shaped chamber and the flash channel that leads to the nipple seat. There is no breech scraper that can clean the flash channel. Fouling can be pushed into the flash channel to impede the ignition path from the nipple seat to the powder chamber. This fouled flash channel may explain @ETipp's one incidence of a hangfire with his T/C New Englander. Because these are hooked breech firearms, the barrel can be removed from the stock and while the breech is immersed in a bucket of water with some soap the barrel can be forcefully flushed to clean the powder chamber and the flash channel. Note that the so called "clean out" screw is pictured too. The factory screw was made of soft steel and unless the utmost of care is taken, that screw slot can be ruined, and the screw can no longer be removed. Eventually T/C changed the manufacturing process to eliminate that plug and that stopped a lot of warranty replacements.

A pipe cleaner can be run from the nipple seat to the powder chamber, but flushing of the barrel is generally sufficient.

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The picture is the cut away of a T/C Hawken percussion breech. The flint breech has the nipple breech ground off (or not cast in the first place) and a touch hole liner installed. One can see that a cleaning jag will not enter the chambered breech or the flash channel from the chamber to the touch hole and can push fouling down into the chamber and into the flash channel. A fine flexible brush is needed to keep the flash channel clean.

Since the "never wipe" doesn't push fouling into the chamber, it takes a very long time for the fouling to build up to the point that the flash channel is blocked. Using a very wet patch for the ball actually wipes fouling from the bore above the powder charge. Sinnce the shooting occurs shortly after loading, the moisture from the wet patch doesn't adversely effect the powder charge to the point that accuracy falls off noticeably.

I used mutton tallow and can shoot a long time before needing to wipe (I find depending on humidity , the need for wiping can change)

I would like to try Herbs method he loads powder patch and ball then a wet patch on top pushes down the load and pulls the wet patch out with the fouling so every shot is a clean barrel without wetting the breach area

when I wipe at the range I use a cal under bore (45 for50) rides over the fouling 1 wet push down to breach turn to the right ( causing patch to expand ) pulls fouling out instead of pushing into the breach flash hole area use both sides then 2 dry patch and if to very humid a 91%alcohal patch (also used to wipe the rock, pan and frizzen) then pick the flash hole to make sure clear

Every gun is different. I almost never wipe between shots with my rifles- I use spit patch and don’t get stuck balls either.

What works for you might not work for me.

Your job is to discover what works for your rifle.

There are really no shortcuts here, friend.

olskool said:

i can shoot literally all day long and i never wipe a thing but my nose! you do not need all the tricky things to make a gun shoot good. i use 40-60% dawn dish soap for lube. wet the patch thoroughly and load. this keeps the bore clean and the accuracy is top shelf. the 100th ball will slide down the bore like the first, and it will make cleanup of the barrel easy. or you can keep on doing what you are doing with misfires,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

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The mixture is dawn and water? 40-60%?
How wet are the patches?
Thanks
Kevin

Kev308 said:

The mixture is dawn and water? 40-60%?
How wet are the patches?
Thanks
Kevin

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Kevin, try just good ol’ spit.
I put the patch in my mouth and get it wet. That’s all!

(If the load is going to be in the gun a while I use Mink Oil paste on a spit patch so it won’t dry out in the barrel.)

Kev308 said:

The mixture is dawn and water? 40-60%?
How wet are the patches?
Thanks
Kevin

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It is not an exact mix 40-60, 50-50, 60-40,

Personally I use a spit patch 90% of the time but I did try some Dawn and water and it worked great and clean up was super easy, I usually do not fool with it cause spit is just so easy and it works.

If you try the Dawn and water steal a little squirt bottle from your significant other (you know she has some) dump out the contents and refill and just give the patch a little squirt and rub it in...........also have an old towel or something to now wipe your fingers on, you will need it.

I don't wipe between shots either. I run a patch damp with some BP cleaner or Ballistol down after a dozen or so shots, dry it with a patch or two, then carry on.

Stumpkiller said:

I wipe about every fifth shot with a rifle.

How much powder are you priming with. It should be level and slightly BELOW the vent. Thinking back, I don't believe in the 44 years I've shot flintlocks that I have ever removed a vent liner. I've had several that had no liner (Kit Ravenshear once told me that they were a repair item and new flintlocks should not have them.

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Kit has provided the public with lots of good information on several subjects, but I disagree with not having a liner. There is no doubt in my mind when you have a funnel shaped path inside the barrel, a wider tunnel shortens the 1/16"flash path and end result is quicker ignition time. JMO
Larry

olskool said:

i can shoot literally all day long and i never wipe a thing but my nose! you do not need all the tricky things to make a gun shoot good. i use 40-60% dawn dish soap for lube. wet the patch thoroughly and load. this keeps the bore clean and the accuracy is top shelf. the 100th ball will slide down the bore like the first, and it will make cleanup of the barrel easy. or you can keep on doing what you are doing with misfires,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

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Ok, that sounds good to me I want to try Dawn, but got a question. After about 10 shots (no wiping) my flinters will start breech plug fouling build up. I usually use a scraper on the BP. Any thoughts?
Larry

I quit wiping between shots years ago and rarely get a misfire since. I spit patch for target shooting and use Mink oil for hunting. When you load without wiping, the powder charge keeps the fouling out of the touch hole when you ram the ball home. The fouling is then shot out with the ball. Your TC has a patent breech which traps fouling and makes the problem even worse. If you happen to live in a part of the country that has high humidity, such as myself, wiping between shots is going to deal you much aggravation. This works for me and the buddies I shoot with, your results may differ.

Larry (Omaha) said:

Ok, that sounds good to me I want to try Dawn, but got a question. After about 10 shots (no wiping) my flinters will start breech plug fouling build up. I usually use a scraper on the BP. Any thoughts?
Larry

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Don’t worry about the breach plug It will also stay clean enough, just clean it when you’re through shooting

Kansas Kid said:

Just ram and seat the ball with a jag and cleaning patch. Now you wiped the bore without pushing fouling down into the breech area.

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Me too. With flint and percussion.

SDSmlf said:

I have found Dutch’s ‘system’ can work very well, IF you follow it, though others will disagree.

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Most difficulty with Dutchs system is a result of not applying it in its entirety. Dutch came up with the system when he was coaching the US muzzle loading team. It's meant to achieve max accuracy and it will if you do it right. I used it all the time in matches back in the 90's but I don't anymore. Too much rigamarole for a tiny bit of score improvement. Not trying to talk anybody out of it, just my own preference

Kev308 said:

The mixture is dawn and water? 40-60%?
How wet are the patches?
Thanks

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Ever since that guy did the utube video about shooting 50:50 dawn and water it has turned into law. Some guy said it on utube and it's turned into another ML Forum doctrine. It's become close to entering "conventional wisdom" territory. I've used it for years and believe me it works just fine with with 5% or even less soap and it's not a mess to use. If you want to be a real rebel, just use plain water. It'll let you slide the ball down easy peazy. It's for loading and shooting immediately at the range. Like @PathfinderNC says, spit does the exact same thing as soap.

Larry (Omaha) said:

Kit has provided the public with lots of good information on several subjects, but I disagree with not having a liner. There is no doubt in my mind when you have a funnel shaped path inside the barrel, a wider tunnel shortens the 1/16"flash path and end result is quicker ignition time. JMO
Larry

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There are ways to do that without a liner. It just takes more skill and time - and so is not a favorable method.

Before someone posts a pic of the cap lock breach here is what the one in the TC flint locks looks like.

https://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/threads/thompson-center-flintlock-breach-pics.172959/

While fouling could be an issue, I'd like to know what hammer the lock has on it. TC had some geometry issues with the first hammer design that was the culprit for a well-known misfire issue.
The 2nd gen hammers can be found but aren't as abundant as they once were. An RMC Ox Yoke touch hole liner can help as well.

tallpine said:

I quit wiping between shots years ago and rarely get a misfire since. I spit patch for target shooting and use Mink oil for hunting. When you load without wiping, the powder charge keeps the fouling out of the touch hole when you ram the ball home. The fouling is then shot out with the ball. Your TC has a patent breech which traps fouling and makes the problem even worse. If you happen to live in a part of the country that has high humidity, such as myself, wiping between shots is going to deal you much aggravation. This works for me and the buddies I shoot with, your results may differ.

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“I spit patch for target shooting and use Mink oil for hunting”
Copy Cat!

longcruise said:

Most difficulty with Dutchs system is a result of not applying it in its entirety. Dutch came up with the system when he was coaching the US muzzle loading team. It's meant to achieve max accuracy and it will if you do it right. I used it all the time in matches back in the 90's but I don't anymore. Too much rigamarole for a tiny bit of score improvement. Not trying to talk anybody out of it, just my own preference

Ever since that guy did the utube video about shooting 50:50 dawn and water it has turned into law. Some guy said it on utube and it's turned into another ML Forum doctrine. It's become close to entering "conventional wisdom" territory. I've used it for years and believe me it works just fine with with 5% or even less soap and it's not a mess to use. If you want to be a real rebel, just use plain water. It'll let you slide the ball down easy peazy. It's for loading and shooting immediately at the range. Like @PathfinderNC says, spit does the exact same thing as soap.

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he did not come up with it, i told him about it and somebody else told me and somebody else told him, and on it goes it's not any law, you can sure do it the way you like. it just works really good. one feller i sold a gun to wet the patch good and loaded and left it overnight to see if it would hurt the powder in anyway, he saw a doe about 90yds and grabbed the gun and shot and killed the deer! according to him it works for a period of time also. but when i hunt i admit i use my old beeswax and olive oil mix ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,