Ruger Old Army

I don't believe they were 45D open top design, that belongs to Colt. 45D is working with modern Open Top by others, he does not build the gun itself.

Nor is he moving goal posts. He is consistent in his work and his contention, an Open Top of a Modern BP is capable of pressure others did not believe it was and he has put his proof in production and his own testing.

I think Ross Siegfried would disagree with the notion that a 44 Mag kills game as well as the .45 Colt does and he's killed enough big game all over the world with both to have a decent opinion on the matter.

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Mr. Siefried is entittled to carry and use what he wants.

There is no lack of opinions on platforms and calibers. Proof is in scientific pudding and sans that, its an opinion.

For lo many years we heard about the stopping power of a 45 AC, when all those years it was a jacketed bullet that poked holes in things. At issue is the reality that the dynamics of a shot are so wild, you need a massive amount of data even to see a small trend above (or below) the noise (for those not aware that is the term used for variability in any given data set). What has been proven is that modern (non jackets) ammo from 9mm up through 45 ACP is equally effective and its shot placement that counts (be it luck or skill).

So, let me tell you the story you should be aware of. Back in the 80s or 90s, a traveler picked up a nut job hitch hiker and got rid of him as soon as he could (in Palmer AK). The guy was so weird and freaking scary the traveler went to the local Trooper office and told them the guy was freaky scary and they needed to deal with him (he had a sack of guns)

So, there was a uniformed officer and a plain cloths officer, they got in the trooper car and went to the gas station the nut job had been dropped off at.

As soon as the Uniformed officer existed the car (he was driving) the nut job pulls a gun out of the sack and starts shooting.

The Uniformed officer returned fire with his 357 Magnum (the Troopers carried the N frame in those days). The Plain cloths guy had a high capacity Browning. He also exited the car and returned fire (the nut job only shot at the Uniformed officer who was so severly injured he never worked again).

The Piddly 9mm killed the nut job despite the Uniformed officer in nothing short of incredible shooting hit the nut job with 4 or 5 of the 357 rounds (that hit ratio is rare even for trained people). The 9mm hit the guy 8 or 9 times as I recall (also a really good hit ratio)

So why did the autopsy show the 9mm killed the nut job? One round knicked the Aorta and he bled out from that shot. So, the mighty 357 failed? Nope, it was all luck of shot placement and both were doing a virtually unbelievable job of that.

And yea I know of a shoot out involving a 45 ACP and a 44 magnum. The 45 ACP won, but the guy with it took 44 magnum hits (4 from memory).

Neither of those two situations is proof of anything, other than shot placement counts and a kill shot is needed short term to achieve the goal.

What is proven through data, is AD ammo in 9mm is as good as SD ammo in 45 ACP. 44 magnum ensures nothing. Opinions aside.

So one guy shoots elephants with a .264 or some such, all it proved was a good ear shot would kill an elephant because a disturbance of the brain is a kill shot.

O'Conner did it with the 270. Yipee. I still remember it was amazing flat shooting (until you look at the tables and see its a few inches better than an 06 at 400 yards and both drop a lot.

Your problem clearly is you think an opinion is a fact (selectively). Its not.

which brings us back to the guide who feels safer with his .357 in bear country than a .44mag because he feels that he gets better shot placement with the 357. I 100% agree with that choice. whatever you shoot best is the right choice. Guy I worked with in the kitchen in wyoming had been a cook in a logging camp in AK. Brown bear walked right in his kitchen while the guys were out logging. Cookie dropped it with one shot from his .41 mag. they ate a lot of bear for a bit.
PS. this is a great conversation with great stories. Hope the sourpuss Mods don't shut it down.

M. De Land said:

I have already, it's the mass difference, alloy and heat treat used. You keep mixing the perimeters and moving the goal post. All else being equal there is no question that a closed frame design is superior in strength structurally to your open top designs,

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Well sir, funny thing is you seem to retain only what you want to. The 1860 in 45acp ( that's been the topic for the last couple of years) is STILL the topic!! If you're trying to mix in the Dragoon for comparison, I've only been to the range twice shooting it with 45C +p's (starting this summer).
So, to reiterate the "TOPIC" again, the 1860 loaded with 45acp +p ammo is perfectly fine after 2000 + rounds whereas the Revolvers listed in Brian's list cannot . . . you remember the list right ? My Pietta Frontier is on the list and it had frame movement from firing just 5 +p rounds . . .
So, first hand, at the range, the Pietta can't, the 1860 (Uberti) can. Both Revolvers are "belt" pistols (same basic size).
So, where is the mass difference?
You know the Ruger Blackhawk is a rather heavy revolver . . . is it cheating if it's mass is taken into consideration?
Again, the firing line is proof !!! The score is -
Pietta Frontier - 5 shots
1860 Army - 2000 +
No question the better revolver.

Smokerr said:

And I carried a 41 magnum and with full knowledge it was the best bad choice of a lot of poor ones. Charging Grizzly? You better make your one shot a good one. What he and or his kids carry obviously is their choice but bear spray is by far better protection. A shotgun is next but that has the issue any shoulder arm has, it has to be carried in hand, on the shoulder does you no good.

Regardless, if holstered you got to get it out, in time. As the guy down Soldotna way found out with his bear spray, in the holster did no good.

Simply put for those who will listen and understand, there is no free lunch and 357 with hard cast is also not an answer. It may be comfort but when the majority of encounters are one shot and many none......,....

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From what I understand about present guides in high-danger game country, they like to have both bear spray and a side arm.....sometimes a shotgun....depends on the guide. The bears can be on you at over 30mph, there's only a moment to react. They also say most 'incidents' happen when the people they're guiding do something stupid. There's also the mentality that if a bear or dangerous animal attacks, the guides need to work it out. Seems to me it should always be humans helping humans to survive.

And there's a distinct difference between a black/brown bear attacking versus a Grizzly. Grizzlies are twice the bear and twice the bad temperament if they wanna be. But any sow with a cub(s) is gonna be a scenario you want to avoid at all costs.

Kevin

French Colonial said:

Wrong wrong and wrong

Kieth could not hot rod the 45LC because the cylinders of the day (Colt) would not stand the pressure. He needed the thicker side walls of the 44 cylinder.

Then along came the Rugers with better metal and better heat treatment.

Look at the performance of a 45LC loaded hot and there is no hot load from a 44 mag that comes close and the 45 does it at lower pressures

Go look up the numbers at Cor-Bon and Buffalo Bore and look at it compared to the 44 and the numbers are obvious.

And SERIOUS handgun hunters prefer a 45, most opt for the Casull and Linebaugh calibers, but the load I use 26 grains of H110 and a 250 grain Hornady cannot be achieved in a 44.

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That makes absolutely no sense. Keith collaborated with S&W to make the strong Model 29 in .44 magnum......a completely new handgun. He could have just as easily collaborated to make a belted .45 magnum if there was any advantage to keeping the .45 diameter bullet....a round that he grew up with. Your FPS and muzzle energy numbers fall apart as the bullet goes a bit down range.....ya know, where the animals are.

Kevin

Now I know why Kamala's campaign is $20 million short...

Real1 said:

That makes absolutely no sense. Keith collaborated with S&W to make the strong Model 29 in .44 magnum......a completely new handgun. He could have just as easily collaborated to make a belted .45 magnum if there was any advantage to keeping the .45 diameter bullet....a round that he grew up with. Your FPS and muzzle energy numbers fall apart as the bullet goes a bit down range.....ya know, where the animals are.

Kevin

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It makes perfect sense, he worked for many years to develop the 44 mag using thicker cylinder walls of the older guns. In fact he tried to hot rod the 45 back in the day and blew up some of the older Colt and S&W's. Balloon head cases of the 45 did not help either.

After spending years developing the cartridge, hunting with it extensively and championing its use to anyone that would listen he was invested in it. Years later he could not go to S&W and say "Oh by the way, that 44 I had you invest all that R&D etc. in, yeah I found something better"

If Elmer would have had a Ruger back in the day I believe we would of had a 45 mag.

The 44 was Elmer's baby and he was an exceptional guy and the 44 mag is a great cartridge, but it will not do what a modern 45LC will do, it's just physics.

nick_1 said:

any game that tells you that it can tell the difference between gitten shot with a .44mag and .45lc is lying through it's dead teeth. At that point it's all about shot placement. Its always all about shot placement. big hole in the dirt got nothing on a small hole between the lookers unless of course the small hole bounces off the skull. Can't go too small but going too big if you sacrifice your ability to hit under stress is just as bad. Find the balance of power, speed and accuracy. Stick with the biggest thing you can handle really well under stress.
When I dug into my safe this fall before hunting season I pulled out a Savage 110 with a scope on it that makes a really big bang and my 81yr old #4Mk1 which I have had since I was 14years old and makes a kind of big bang. Both of them hit the bullseye no problem resting on the hood of my truck at 200m. When I started banging away free hand at 100m I was much better with the old trusty. no scope but much less recoil and many more hours and years in my hands. still plenty of umph to drop anything I would ever shoot. and you don't have to worry about the scope fogging up. View attachment 365021

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Long Branch?

French Colonial said:

It makes perfect sense, he worked for many years to develop the 44 mag using thicker cylinder walls of the older guns. In fact he tried to hot rod the 45 back in the day and blew up some of the older Colt and S&W's. Balloon head cases of the 45 did not help either.

After spending years developing the cartridge, hunting with it extensively and championing its use to anyone that would listen he was invested in it. Years later he could not go to S&W and say "Oh by the way, that 44 I had you invest all that R&D etc. in, yeah I found something better"

If Elmer would have had a Ruger back in the day I believe we would of had a 45 mag.

The 44 was Elmer's baby and he was an exceptional guy and the 44 mag is a great cartridge, but it will not do what a modern 45LC will do, it's just physics.

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FC, thanks for helping make my point!! Elmer couldn't hot rod the SAA in 45C and you still can't today. It's what I've been pointing out for yrs . . .
Now, all the sudden it CAN'T because Elmer couldn't . . . the SAA is on the same list that my Pietta Frontier is on (how bout that !!) so with the same idea, my 1860 Army CAN handle the +p pressures that the SAA can't (as well as many other Top Strap revolvers).
So, now that that is established, the '60 open top can more than likely handle some more and there's plenty of room for some heavier bullets.

Now, so there's no confusion, the Dragoons (which I've introduced to the higher pressure testing this past summer) can really take a punch so it'll be interesting to see how far I can push it !! So, that's a '60 Army and a Dragoon (both Open Top revolvers) that are being tested . . . just like Elmer was doing . . .

Thanks again,

Mike

It's a #4 mk1 lend lease made by Savage in 1943 stamped US property and the sent over seas to the British. Has the crown proof marks.

@Zonie is spinning in his grave right now.

Bad Karma said:

@Zonie is spinning in his grave right now.

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I guess he was gone before I got here. Don't mean to be a disruptor, just trying to expand the knowledge base of what we actually can do with the revolvers we enjoy so much. It's always good to have options.
Again, I thank the "powers that be" for allowing some venting about what should be a huge plus for what we have available today that our ancestors would be amazed at!! Some folks just have a tough time finding out things are better than it was thought.

Mike

Real1 said:

It won't outperform the 44 mag. If you're gonna hot load a .45LC in a Ruger, then it's only fair to hot load the .44mag in comparison. I used to think the same for decades about the .45LC, but ballistically, it's not true. I even turned away some nice single actions because they were in .44 mag instead of .45LC. However, I'm still more partial to the .45LC....just because that's what I settled on in my youth with Rugers. If I had a Colt SA in .45LC, not sure I'd be hot-rodding that frame.

The next argument is bloodletting; the .45 cuts a bigger hole than the .44 mag. That's only a small incremental difference. Honestly, if I was being charged by a bear, I'd probably want the .44 mag in my hands over the .45LC. But that would depend on bullets too and shot placement......and don't forget the 'panic' factor.

If you want your argument to to have any validity, you would need to talk with a number of handgun hunters that go after dangerous game with the .45LC versus the .44mag. And certainly Elmer Keith if alive would favor the .44 mag. He could have enhanced the .45LC but instead pushed for the .44mag calibration.

Kevin

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45 LC has a bigger case and a bigger bullet. 44 mag are already hot loaded from the factory

whatever the difference is between the two ain,t nothing you will ever shoot with either round that will be able to tell you man that didn't hurt nearly as much as the time I got shot with the other round.. its just silly numbers. Only thing that counts in the real world is shot placement and enough umph to get it done. extra umph means nothing...

French Colonial said:

It makes perfect sense, he worked for many years to develop the 44 mag using thicker cylinder walls of the older guns. In fact he tried to hot rod the 45 back in the day and blew up some of the older Colt and S&W's. Balloon head cases of the 45 did not help either.

After spending years developing the cartridge, hunting with it extensively and championing its use to anyone that would listen he was invested in it. Years later he could not go to S&W and say "Oh by the way, that 44 I had you invest all that R&D etc. in, yeah I found something better"

If Elmer would have had a Ruger back in the day I believe we would of had a 45 mag.

The 44 was Elmer's baby and he was an exceptional guy and the 44 mag is a great cartridge, but it will not do what a modern 45LC will do, it's just physics.

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Yep, quite a guy. I was living in Idaho when he was still alive. He was a denizen of Salmon, ID. I was told he would often sit in a chair outside of a store there and you could go up and talk to him.... he was especially interested in people passing through and their life stories. I don't know if any of that was true or not as I never made the pilgrimage.

Kevin

SPQR70AD said:

45 LC has a bigger case and a bigger bullet. 44 mag are already hot loaded from the factory

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As been stated, the bullet is only marginally bigger than a .44. Not enough to make a difference in killing an animal. I'm all for hot-rodding the 45LC and prefer that round over all others only because I've been shooting that round since my 20s. If you look in any handloading book, you can substantially increase the velocity of the .44 mag over factory rounds. I'm not sure to what advantage because you have to HOLD the gun to get accuracy.....especially in the heat of the moment. The beauty of the .45LC is that you can load down to 900 FPS or so for enjoyable plinking and then slam it up in a Ruger to respectable velocities. If you habitually hand load, either round is a winner with Rugers on dangerous game IF you are skilled in shot placement in the heat of the moment.

It used to be you couldn't buy any factory-loaded rounds for the .45LC over 900 FPS. The bullet manufacturers were worried about n00bs putting hot rounds through old Colt SAA guns. Even the old handloading books cautioned you about using hot .45LC rounds in older guns except for Rugers and single-shot T/Cs etc.

Kevin

Yada, Yada, Yada......

Shot placement is everything that is why I hunt bears with a .22 rimfire.........give me a break.

Bad Karma said:

@Zonie is spinning in his grave right now.

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Yeah, this is the "keeping tradition alive" Muzzle Loading forum and I have been guilty regarding going off into the unmentionable subjects.

I just cannot keep from posting when people post stuff that is demonstratable to be wrong or misinformed. I cannot believe the moderators let this go as long as it has.

I will try to be better

shot placement is everything. a .22 long to the temple killed the largest brown bear on record. a massive magnum in the dirt gets you nothing. that being said I am Never advocating hunting bears with a .22 . Hunt with the strongest load that you can get good shot placement with under stress. So yes Yada dada shot placement is everything.

French Colonial said:

I just cannot keep from posting when people post stuff that is demonstratable to be wrong or misinformed.

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Exactly my sentiments!! That's why I've been posting my results!!
( heavy on the "demonstratable" part!)
Mike