Ruger Old Army

[Smokerr]

I don't believe they were 45D open top design, that belongs to Colt. 45D is working with modern Open Top by others, he does not build the gun itself.

Nor is he moving goal posts. He is consistent in his work and his contention, an Open Top of a Modern BP is capable of pressure others did not believe it was and he has put his proof in production and his own testing.

I think Ross Siegfried would disagree with the notion that a 44 Mag kills game as well as the .45 Colt does and he's killed enough big game all over the world with both to have a decent opinion on the matter.

Mr. Siefried is entittled to carry and use what he wants.

There is no lack of opinions on platforms and calibers. Proof is in scientific pudding and sans that, its an opinion.

For lo many years we heard about the stopping power of a 45 AC, when all those years it was a jacketed bullet that poked holes in things. At issue is the reality that the dynamics of a shot are so wild, you need a massive amount of data even to see a small trend above (or below) the noise (for those not aware that is the term used for variability in any given data set). What has been proven is that modern (non jackets) ammo from 9mm up through 45 ACP is equally effective and its shot placement that counts (be it luck or skill).

So, let me tell you the story you should be aware of. Back in the 80s or 90s, a traveler picked up a nut job hitch hiker and got rid of him as soon as he could (in Palmer AK). The guy was so weird and freaking scary the traveler went to the local Trooper office and told them the guy was freaky scary and they needed to deal with him (he had a sack of guns)

So, there was a uniformed officer and a plain cloths officer, they got in the trooper car and went to the gas station the nut job had been dropped off at.

As soon as the Uniformed officer existed the car (he was driving) the nut job pulls a gun out of the sack and starts shooting.

The Uniformed officer returned fire with his 357 Magnum (the Troopers carried the N frame in those days). The Plain cloths guy had a high capacity Browning. He also exited the car and returned fire (the nut job only shot at the Uniformed officer who was so severly injured he never worked again).

The Piddly 9mm killed the nut job despite the Uniformed officer in nothing short of incredible shooting hit the nut job with 4 or 5 of the 357 rounds (that hit ratio is rare even for trained people). The 9mm hit the guy 8 or 9 times as I recall (also a really good hit ratio)

So why did the autopsy show the 9mm killed the nut job? One round knicked the Aorta and he bled out from that shot. So, the mighty 357 failed? Nope, it was all luck of shot placement and both were doing a virtually unbelievable job of that.

And yea I know of a shoot out involving a 45 ACP and a 44 magnum. The 45 ACP won, but the guy with it took 44 magnum hits (4 from memory).

Neither of those two situations is proof of anything, other than shot placement counts and a kill shot is needed short term to achieve the goal.

What is proven through data, is AD ammo in 9mm is as good as SD ammo in 45 ACP. 44 magnum ensures nothing. Opinions aside.

So one guy shoots elephants with a .264 or some such, all it proved was a good ear shot would kill an elephant because a disturbance of the brain is a kill shot.

O'Conner did it with the 270. Yipee. I still remember it was amazing flat shooting (until you look at the tables and see its a few inches better than an 06 at 400 yards and both drop a lot.

Your problem clearly is you think an opinion is a fact (selectively). Its not.

 

[nick_1]

which brings us back to the guide who feels safer with his .357 in bear country than a .44mag because he feels that he gets better shot placement with the 357. I 100% agree with that choice. whatever you shoot best is the right choice. Guy I worked with in the kitchen in wyoming had been a cook in a logging camp in AK. Brown bear walked right in his kitchen while the guys were out logging. Cookie dropped it with one shot from his .41 mag. they ate a lot of bear for a bit.
PS. this is a great conversation with great stories. Hope the sourpuss Mods don't shut it down.

 

[45D]

I have already, it's the mass difference, alloy and heat treat used. You keep mixing the perimeters and moving the goal post. All else being equal there is no question that a closed frame design is superior in strength structurally to your open top designs,

Well sir, funny thing is you seem to retain only what you want to. The 1860 in 45acp ( that's been the topic for the last couple of years) is STILL the topic!! If you're trying to mix in the Dragoon for comparison, I've only been to the range twice shooting it with 45C +p's (starting this summer).
So, to reiterate the "TOPIC" again, the 1860 loaded with 45acp +p ammo is perfectly fine after 2000 + rounds whereas the Revolvers listed in Brian's list cannot . . . you remember the list right ? My Pietta Frontier is on the list and it had frame movement from firing just 5 +p rounds . . .
So, first hand, at the range, the Pietta can't, the 1860 (Uberti) can. Both Revolvers are "belt" pistols (same basic size).
So, where is the mass difference?
You know the Ruger Blackhawk is a rather heavy revolver . . . is it cheating if it's mass is taken into consideration?
Again, the firing line is proof !!! The score is -
Pietta Frontier - 5 shots
1860 Army - 2000 +
No question the better revolver.

 

[Real1]

And I carried a 41 magnum and with full knowledge it was the best bad choice of a lot of poor ones. Charging Grizzly? You better make your one shot a good one. What he and or his kids carry obviously is their choice but bear spray is by far better protection. A shotgun is next but that has the issue any shoulder arm has, it has to be carried in hand, on the shoulder does you no good.

Regardless, if holstered you got to get it out, in time. As the guy down Soldotna way found out with his bear spray, in the holster did no good.

Simply put for those who will listen and understand, there is no free lunch and 357 with hard cast is also not an answer. It may be comfort but when the majority of encounters are one shot and many none......,....

From what I understand about present guides in high-danger game country, they like to have both bear spray and a side arm.....sometimes a shotgun....depends on the guide. The bears can be on you at over 30mph, there's only a moment to react. They also say most 'incidents' happen when the people they're guiding do something stupid. There's also the mentality that if a bear or dangerous animal attacks, the guides need to work it out. Seems to me it should always be humans helping humans to survive.

And there's a distinct difference between a black/brown bear attacking versus a Grizzly. Grizzlies are twice the bear and twice the bad temperament if they wanna be. But any sow with a cub(s) is gonna be a scenario you want to avoid at all costs.

Kevin