Ruger Old Army

French Colonial said:

Solidly trounced? SHOW the proof! Show where the 1860 made with modern steel is as strong as a Ruger Blackhawk and can withstand 30,000 lbs of pressure.

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A - Hey, FC, I'm typing real slow so this might soak in . . . nobody ever said they could withstand 30,000 psi loads . . . . that was proposed by your buddy MDL and a small bandwagon of minions quickly followed.

French Colonial said:

Yada Yada

No one is calling him a liar, just saying he is wrong. And he makes money off working on them for people who believe his BS.

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So, basically that IS calling someone a liar and being a "tuner" is a BS job?

French Colonial said:

He is not using an original 1860, he is using a reproduction which is stronger than an original and I never mentioned a Python.....why are YOU shifting the focus

Logic would say that the people at Colt, S&W etc. etc. that transitioned away from open top knew more than you or him.

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Hey!!! You're getting better!!!! I've in fact said I'm testing to see what the MODERN open-top platform can handle!!!!
And . . . I've also said "top strap" revolvers are CHEAPER TO PRODUCE!!

the bear stories were much better reading...

@oldschoolhunter55 too harsh? Well, we have a modern replica 1860 conversion using 23k psi loads. You can fire those in an 1873 or Remington 1975 and stretch that frame or destroy the cylinder. The Blackhawk is like an SAA replica but massively stronger so why would anyone compare them? The actual, original contention was that the 1960 open top was stronger than the Remington NMA top strap. Apples and apples.

nick_1 said:

the bear stories were much better reading...

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Don’t worry, we’ll get back to those, winter has barely begun.

nick_1 said:

the bear stories were much better reading...

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Hey!! Start a thread about bear stories!! I'm sure folks will pile in!!!

Bad Karma said:

@oldschoolhunter55 too harsh? Well, we have a modern replica 1860 conversion using 23k psi loads. You can fire those in an 1873 or Remington 1975 and stretch that frame or destroy the cylinder. The Blackhawk is like an SAA replica but massively stronger so why would anyone compare them? The actual, original contention was that the 1960 open top was stronger than the Remington NMA top strap. Apples and apples.


Don’t worry, we’ll get back to those, winter has barely begun.

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You're exactly right sir !!! Thank you!!

Mike

I get that the Remingtons were in actuality no stronger than the open top colts despite looking stronger but the writing was on the wall. Modern revolvers went in that direction for more reasons than just cost. the closed top allows for more versatility and greater strength. It just needed to be beefier than the early renditions.

Mike have you actually blown up/ wrecked any modern Remington replicas with your loads?

nick_1 said:

Mike have you actually blown up/ wrecked any modern Remington replicas with your loads?

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No sir, is that what it takes? I've bent a Remington frame loading/ shooting too hard of balls . . . I've moved the frame of a modern Pietta copy of a SAA so that it wouldn't allow loading a 45C cartridge after firing just 5 45acp +p rounds . . .

I'm really not into destruction of my revolvers or my body parts just to satisfy some keyboard pirates . That's "backward" testing !!! I'm not in a hurry !!

I actually read what others have tested , load information from the likes of Brian Pearce.
The field is wide open. . . . knock yourself out and let us know.

Mike

In the epistemology dept. (wow - now that's a new word for me!) - what evidence is there that is more expensive to produce the top strap type over the open type? The Uberti and Pietta reproductions cost approximately the same.
Taylors shows some cartridge models (mostly out of stock) also for about the same price.
No major manufacturer has made a open type for about 150 years, so there is no data for that.
All those engineers at all those companies for all those years have chosen the top strap design - doesn't that count as some sort of evidence?
Evidence doesn't mean someone insisting something.

Mike. you did bend the frame of the SAA copy shooting your loads. Bending the frame with the loading lever while not good is not a test of what load can be fired so that result is not useful in this discussion. Interesting but different failure mode. Then the next question is you say you modify your open top colts to shoot your hot loads. That's not a fair comparison of a modified open top and a stock SAA or Remington. A fair test would be a stock open top and a stock Remington and SAA. Would a modified Remington and modified SAA be able to withstand the same load as a modified open top?

Bad Karma said:

Smile when you say that, mister… ;-)

Well then, take your favorite 1873 Colt replica, load it up with 30k loads and report back. If you’re still able to type with both hands I’ll buy you a cigar. Otherwise, maybe we could compare Granny Smith versus Gala instead of pie apples and tangerines…

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My 1873 colt replica is a Ruger Blackhawk that Shoots 30,000 lb loads regularly

Take that and I raise you a couple pounds

You guys who don't load for the 45LC with heavy loads should do some research before you spout off about things you don't know $h!t about.

At least some of what 45D does is fix the Uberti short Arbor which is not really a modification, the Arbor being short is the mod. Putting it back where it should be is a change to existing but not a modification.

I need a spread sheet to see if he has done the work on Pietta open tops. Mods are making them work better, not beefing them up.

My 1873 colt replica is a Ruger Blackhawk that Shoots 30,000 lb loads regularly

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That is NOT a replica. Its a modern full on gun that happens to be chambered for 45 LC (yeah I still use LC) and happens to be SA. I call that grasping straws. That same gun in .454 Casull will handle 50k. Give me a break.

The ROA is not a replica. It may be trimmed down on the top strap (at a guess from pictures) but its all off a modern Blackhawk as well. Ergo, the chambers will take anything the Blackhawk chamber would.

The top strap may not.

Jim in Wisconsin said:

In the epistemology dept. (wow - now that's a new word for me!) - what evidence is there that is more expensive to produce the top strap type over the open type? The Uberti and Pietta reproductions cost approximately the same.
Taylors shows some cartridge models (mostly out of stock) also for about the same price.
No major manufacturer has made a open type for about 150 years, so there is no data for that.
All those engineers at all those companies for all those years have chosen the top strap design - doesn't that count as some sort of evidence?
Evidence doesn't mean someone insisting something.

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Exactly my point!!!! A barrel with an arbor hole and barrel lug to match the frame is definitely more expensive to produce than a barrel with threads to screw into a frame!! Really ?

nick_1 said:

Mike. you did bend the frame of the SAA copy shooting your loads. Bending the frame with the loading lever while not good is not a test of what load can be fired so that result is not useful in this discussion. Interesting but different failure mode.

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nick_1, i did "move" the frame of a SAA copy (Pietta Frontier) by shooting 5 45acp +p rounds. They were factory loads ( not mine) from Hornady and were Critical Duty (not Critical Defense for the homeowner). The same +p loads are what I shoot in my 1860's.

The Remington was bent decades ago from loading/shooting hard balls and nothing was noticed until I had trouble rotating the cylinder. The main point there is the parallel sides of the frame ( which any engineer would tell you is the weakest structure to contain a force at a corner). So, this shows the "failure" is the perimeter structure of the frame itself which, same as today, is only enhanced by thickness and width of the top strap ie Freedom Arms, BFR'S, Ruger Super Blackhawk . . .
You can "read in" whatever you want but that's where I'm coming from.

nick_1 said:

Then the next question is you say you modify your open top colts to shoot your hot loads. That's not a fair comparison of a modified open top and a stock SAA or Remington. A fair test would be a stock open top and a stock Remington and SAA.

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Haaa!!! The "modification" IS making the open-top to design so you CAN test apples to apples !!! The design calls for an end fit arbor which Uberti doesn't do. Isn't it more fair to test correct build to correct build?!! The "shooting loose" wedge you speak of above about Rugers making it a non issue is exactly WHY it's a "non issue" with correct setup!!
My (and my customers) wedges don't "shoot loose".

nick_1 said:

Would a modified Remington and modified SAA be able to withstand the same load as a modified open top?

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No. It's all about the frame. A Colt size frame cannot withstand the +p forces in a .45acp+p caliber.
The Kirst cylinder can and a CORRECTLY built open top platform CAN. It's actually about how all the forces are applied that elude some of the "so called" thinkers here!

Mike

French furniture flops every time.

French Colonial said:

My 1873 colt replica is a Ruger Blackhawk that Shoots 30,000 lb loads regularly

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A Ruger Blackhawk is a replica of the Colt Model P ?
And can shoot 30,000 pound loads ?

French Colonial said:

You should do some research before you spout off about things you don't know $h!t abouabout.

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I agree wholeheartedly!!!!

Mike

Dickydalton said:

French furniture flops every time.

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Poor baby, sorry if you got your feelings hurt.

Once again, stick with something you know something about.

Ok, here is the bottom line and my last post on this subject (that should make some happy)

A Ruger Blackhawk in 45LC with a 250 grain Hornady bullet and 26+ grains of H110 will generate 30,000 lbs of pressure. I know, I have done it and you can look it up on the reloading sites.

When 45D or anyone else loads up an open top with an equivalent load at that pressure and shoots a full cylinder through it and it holds together I will personally call them up and apologize and humble myself to him.

Until then....as they say...... your just whistling dixie

French Colonial said:

Ok, here is the bottom line and my last post on this subject (that should make some happy)

A Ruger Blackhawk with a 250 grain Hornady bullet and 26+ grains of H110 will generate 30,000 lbs of pressure. I know, I have done it and you can look it up on the reloading sites.

When 45D or anyone else loads up an open top with an equivalent load at that pressure and shoots a full cylinder through it and it holds together I will personally call them up and apologize and humble myself to him.

Until then....as they say...... your just whistling dixie

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Why don't you do that with a Colt SAA first?

Mike