Why does a load shoot two separate goups??

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Check you balls/conicals with a caliper and a scale.

Then check the gun well. Does the wedge fit tight? Does the barrel tang fit well? Sights tight?

I had a "hawken" that shot screwy, until I found the all the barrel rib screws were loose. Not sure how that made such a difference but it did.

That was a GM barrel I purchased NIB.
 
Steel Guitar said:
Hello All,
Why does a load shoot two separate goups? The two groups are about 5" apart at 100 yards. I've had this happen three different days. I pay close attention to loading, sighting, sand bags, hold my breath, and wish for good luck. Too bad though, each of the groups is around one inch. Oh, and they are random, one shot high then maybe the next low but no consistancy.
Click to expand...
Do you mean you are shooting two one inch groups in two different spots?
 
Just for clarity, are you saying you shoot 3 in a 1” group, then another 3 in a 1” group but that second group is 5” away from the first?

Or are you saying you shoot 6 shots and at random 3 are in one group and the other 3 in the second?

Also, are you shooting a half stock? Full stock? Pinned barrel? I’m wedge keyed barrel? Hook breach setup?
 
I think the OP is furnishing confusing information. My suggestion is to tell us EVERYTHING about ONE gun. It is almost like he is asking why one gun shoots differently than another, but other statements seem to contradict that. If he has one gun that shoots to different points of impact, that would be easy to answer. In one post he said "my 50s," as in having more than one.
 
Mike in FL said:
I think the OP is furnishing confusing information. My suggestion is to tell us EVERYTHING about ONE gun. It is almost like he is asking why one gun shoots differently than another, but other statements seem to contradict that. If he has one gun that shoots to different points of impact, that would be easy to answer. In one post he said "my 50s," as in having more than one.
Click to expand...
FishDFly said:
Yep, you are right.
Click to expand...
I think it's worth noting OP hasn't furnished any more information or answered any questions about specifics and only posted three mores times briefly and very early in the thread following his OP. If someone isn't willing or able to answer questions about specifics relevant to the problems he's asking for help about in his OP, then I think we need to conclude that it's a waste of our time to pursue giving helpful advice.
 
wiscoaster said:
I think it's worth noting OP hasn't furnished any more information or answered any questions about specifics and only posted three mores times briefly and very early in the thread following his OP. If someone isn't willing or able to answer questions about specifics relevant to the problems he's asking for help about in his OP, then I think we need to conclude that it's a waste of our time to pursue giving helpful advice.
Click to expand...
I think he was making a joke just to see what we would do.
 
Thanks for all of the responses. Being an old retired teacher I can take the good with the not so good. The not so good made me laugh but still these good people were trying to help me. I have been busy and am not so good as describing my problem.
As I mentioned I have had this problem from time to time with several of my rifles (I only have 20). So, I will tell of just one gun.
TC percussion 50cal
60g goex 2f with cast ball
.15 or so patch with crisco, ball and patch go down barrel with enough friction to achieve max accuracy from exsperience
rem caps
Most days out it shoots a nice 2" group at 50 yards. However, some days it will shoot one high and then the next low for a total of 8 shots which end up in a small group above another small group with a vertical distance of around 5".
In measuring ball weight what would be too much of a variation which would cause bad groups?
I measure powder by volume and do not tap the powder measure causing more powder.
 
Steel Guitar said:
Thanks for all of the responses. Being an old retired teacher I can take the good with the not so good. The not so good made me laugh but still these good people were trying to help me. I have been busy and am not so good as describing my problem.
As I mentioned I have had this problem from time to time with several of my rifles (I only have 20). So, I will tell of just one gun.
TC percussion 50cal
60g goex 2f with cast ball
.15 or so patch with crisco, ball and patch go down barrel with enough friction to achieve max accuracy from exsperience
rem caps
Most days out it shoots a nice 2" group at 50 yards. However, some days it will shoot one high and then the next low for a total of 8 shots which end up in a small group above another small group with a vertical distance of around 5".
In measuring ball weight what would be too much of a variation which would cause bad groups?
I measure powder by volume and do not tap the powder measure causing more powder.
Click to expand...

So if I'm reading this correctly, you shoot 8 shots. One shot will be high, the next shot low, then the next shot high, and then the next low, and so on?

If so, that sounds very odd, but also very consistent. I'm not sure that's an issue with powder or ball, it's too specifically consistent. My guess is it's something with the aim. Perhaps the light is hitting the fronts sight at an angle so any slight movement on your part makes the sight appear shorter(or taller), and you're compensating a bit from shot to shot.

This is purely a guess, though.
 
Well.......I have a T\C 50 cal flintlock that I assembled from a kit in the late '70's. That rifle sort of drove me crazy. The only load that would work with any consistency was a PRB over 60gr FF. Any other powder charge would give me shotgun groups.....and large patterns at that.

Now, I managed to kill many whitetails with that, and likely missed as many or more than I got. That rifle would just shoot flyer's when it felt like it with no rhyme or reason.

About 15 years ago I put a Green MT drop in replacement barrel in it. It was the best thing that ever happen to that rifle. It now shoots consistent groups out to 100 yards with a Hornady Pa. conical over 100gr FF.

The T\C barrels have a shallow grove barrel. I think after the first shot, the groves would get fouled and because the groves were so shallow, the ball didn't engage in the rifling the entire trip out of the bore. Just a SWAG on my part. Don't really know.
 
Matt-J2 said:
So if I'm reading this correctly, you shoot 8 shots. One shot will be high, the next shot low, then the next shot high, and then the next low, and so on?

If so, that sounds very odd, but also very consistent. I'm not sure that's an issue with powder or ball, it's too specifically consistent. My guess is it's something with the aim. Perhaps the light is hitting the fronts sight at an angle so any slight movement on your part makes the sight appear shorter(or taller), and you're compensating a bit from shot to shot.

This is purely a guess, though.
Click to expand...
Pressure on the ball.

If you put more pressure on the ball, it will shoot high. If you put less pressure on the ball, it will shoot low.

If you put consistent pressure on the ball when loading each shot, it will produce a nice consistent group, all the same height.

To produce consistent groups you have to remain consistent, do everything the same each shot each time.
 
Steel Guitar said:
Thanks for all of the responses. Being an old retired teacher I can take the good with the not so good. The not so good made me laugh but still these good people were trying to help me. I have been busy and am not so good as describing my problem.
As I mentioned I have had this problem from time to time with several of my rifles (I only have 20). So, I will tell of just one gun.
TC percussion 50cal
60g goex 2f with cast ball
.15 or so patch with crisco, ball and patch go down barrel with enough friction to achieve max accuracy from exsperience
rem caps
Most days out it shoots a nice 2" group at 50 yards. However, some days it will shoot one high and then the next low for a total of 8 shots which end up in a small group above another small group with a vertical distance of around 5".
In measuring ball weight what would be too much of a variation which would cause bad groups?
I measure powder by volume and do not tap the powder measure causing more powder.
Click to expand...

I think it's you maybe. Try a different targets..

It would help to see that target...

You said 5 inches apart. Is it still in the area of a pie plate..

Are you resting the barrel on anything. Or .. how are you benching it.
 
oops, I forgot to say that the high and low hits were Random. Yes, I use consistant pressure on the ball, 2 taps on the end of the rod with my damascus knife.
the strange thing is when this happens with off hand off a pole shooting, if I go immediatelly to the bench to shoot sometimes this 2 groups things still happens
I bench it shooting off of sand bags and yup I put the buttstock in the same part of the shoulder everytime. You can't make expert class in high power rifle by making simple mistakes such as that.
 

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