Why does a load shoot two separate goups??

[Philip Lebow]

Could be the nut that holds the stock is the problem...

 

[wiscoaster]

.....Yes, I use consistant pressure on the ball, 2 taps on the end of the rod with my damascus knife.
....

That's not enough to be sure you've got the ball fully seated. First, make a mark on the ramrod where it should be level with the muzzle with the ball fully seated. Then when loading, ram down until your mark is where it's supposed to be, using as much force as necessary. Then repeat three times, then finally "bounce" the ramrod against the seated ball. Your should hear your ramrod go "clunk" and you should observe that it "bounces". That's how you tell if your ball is fully seated and the powder is compressed into the breach. Inconsistent ball seating and/or powder not compressed could be responsible for inconsistent point-of-impact results given no inconsistency in point of aim or ignition flinch.

 

[Grenadier1758]

...
As I mentioned I have had this problem from time to time with several of my rifles (I only have 20). So, I will tell of just one gun.
...
Most days out it shoots a nice 2" group at 50 yards. However, some days it will shoot one high and then the next low for a total of 8 shots which end up in a small group above another small group with a vertical distance of around 5".
...

Since this two group phenomenon is happening with more than one rifle, we need to put aside issues with rifles and look at procedures. What are the procedures that Steel Guitar is following between shots. Is he using prelubricated patches that have deteriorated during storage? The result of having two distinct groups rule out most of the situations that open up groups. Deteriorating patches normally result in a pattern. Weight variations would have a vertical line of impact. Are there two different thickness of patching that is in use that Steel Guitar is using for several different rifles? What's common between those instances where several rifles shoot into two groups? What variations in shooting procedure occur when the two groups are observed? Is there a clump of

Steel Guitar needs to set up his shooting table so that every shot is being shot using identical procedures and components.

 

[Trigger]

It's 50 yards..

Try nice shooting sticks for a group.

Try sitting position.

Try laying prone position.

Compair all targets.. have fun.

I've not shot past 300.. so that's my with modern.. I never noticed laying prone with a sandbag being nice till then.

 

[Trigger]

I just find it.. groups..

That's weird.. like if you shoot one high one low one middle one right yea yes that's you..

But it groups.

I'd just first think.. I'm constantly aiming like that.

with a muzzloader you have to load it. Then shoot all over get in position again etc.. it's a reset everyshot. Its a work out before shooting. Id wait a min after getting loaded up...

It's not like modern where get set and you go boom boom boom from position.

 

[Icemanxxxv]

Then why did he ask is he is to busy?

Could be any of a number of reasons. Sometimes life just get in the way.

 

[FishDFly]

Flinching, jerking the trigger comes to mind and some folks just cannot shoot.

 

[SciAggie]

Shoot under the same light conditions. Light changes on how it hits the front sight can make you shoot away from the light.

This was my first thought

 

[SciAggie]

Weigh your round balls

It matters.

 

[deerstalkert]

i suspect one shot is fired with a sand bag under the forearm and the high shot has the bag under the barrel, classic symptoms.

 

[Icemanxxxv]

Maybe inconsistent patch lube. Wetter patches shoot low drier patches high?

 

[Banjoman]

Could we see one of your targets so that we may better understand what your groups look like? I wonder if what you’re seeing is not two groups but maybe one group. Check these out. Some might call these two groups, but I call them one group and the reason they weren’t better was probably because of inconsistent patches or home cast round balls. I’ve since corrected those issues.

 

[riflewright]

Could we see one of your targets so that we may better understand what your groups look like? I wonder if what you’re seeing is not two groups but maybe one group. Check these out. Some might call these two groups, but I call them one group and the reason they weren’t better was probably because of inconsistent patches or home cast round balls. I’ve since corrected those issues.

View attachment 367541View attachment 367542

I'm a retired pro 3d shooter & quit because of the same problem you may have. I have a caterac in my right eye that I didn't notice while shooting scoped rifles , but when shooting open sights I shot like you are describing. If you look at a high vis front sight you can see that it has Halo's & with open sights it can appear that it is the right halo & not be ,making me shoot high & low groups randomly but in same string . If this makes any sense. I've had my eye fixed & no longer have that problem

 

[hudelsonb]

My .02 cents. It's the way you're seeing the sights. That's the only thing that could cause a POI shift that large at such a short distance. A couple of grains difference in powder or ball wouldn't cause a shift like that. I also don't see how powder, patch, ball, or loading pressures could change the POI off the centerline like you're seeing on your targets. The only other variable (assuming wind is relatively consistent) is you. Not sure if your face isn't contacting the stock with the same pressure and in the same place every time or, if the light is changing or, any number of other possible reasons but, I think the only logical explanation is a shooter induced problem.

Sincerely not trying to be mean. Just trying to help narrow it down.

Ben

 

[Steel Guitar]

Thanks for more replies. I think we are getting closer. The first pic that Banjoman has above is exactly what my groups look like. Maybe it's an affliction caused by us string pickers, Banjoman has 5 and I have 10 (joke). Anyway, I had cateract surgery years ago.
In shooting high power rifle, M1 Garand, my sight picture was a 6 oclock hold with a small bit of white between the front sight and the target, just as the old rifle team guys told me. I was only 3% away form the master class due to the 1.2MOA Garand sights, at 600 yards.

 

[Banjoman]

It’s those minor scales probably!

I don’t have as much experience with muzzleloaders as I do with modern junk but I’m happy to offer what help I can.

Instead of shooting at 100 yards, I would start back at about 13 or no more than 25 yards to see what your starting groups look like. My groups tightened up when I 1) started using consistent patches 2) stopped using round balls I should have poured over and 3) being consistent in how I rested the gun. All the things that apply to modern guns like breathing, sight picture and trigger pull apply to muzzleloaders also.

Also, don’t shoot with your picks on!

 

[tom mesa]

Could it possibly be inhale/ exhale , vertical stringing is caused by poor breath control. Just asking!

 

[oldschoolhunter55]

Could be the nut that holds the stock is the problem...

that's always been my accuracy problem

 

[Salty]

Maybe inconsistent patch lube. Wetter patches shoot low drier patches high?

I have read and found by personal experience that wetter/tighter patches shoot higher. Looser/dryer patches shoot lower.

 

[Icemanxxxv]

I have read and found by personal experience that wetter/tighter patches shoot higher. Looser/dryer patches shoot lower.

Yeah I probably got it backwards or upside-down. Sometimes it happens with me