Hey guys, i just got a hand me down1860 44 cal navy model replica and don't know anything about them. Can someone tell me how much powder to use, is there is a specific type of powder and if i need to use the grease and wad disk?
1860 44 cal Navy replica
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rodwha
58 Cal.
It’s likely a Pietta, which states to use .451” balls but they use grossly undersized chambers (.446” in their NMA) and with a bore measuring .4535” (NMA). That’s huge groove to need to fill. Using a larger ball gives you more lead at the edges where it needs to obturate so I’d recommend .454” balls or the Ruger .457” ball.
As to powder you’ll want 3F of whatever variety you want. You’ll need a powder measure. Some use the spout on the powder flask using their finger and tipping it upside down to fill it in, some prefer an actual powder measure (adjustable unless it has a pet load). Chamber capacity with a ball is roughly 37.5-40 grns, but this is subjective as every powder measure drops a different amount, some by a lot. You can’t overdo it unless you get into heavy bullets with large driving bands.
You’ll want felt wads with whatever lube you want. I punch my own and lube them myself. Recently turned on to a simple recipe of castor oil and rubbing alcohol.
You’ll need a cleaning kit. Warm water with a drop of dish soap in a little bucket is all you need. Oil afterwards. I highly recommend Ballistol as it emulsifies with water allowing it to evaporate leaving just the oil. Keeps you from having to be so exacting with the moisture after cleaning. It is also good for wood and leather, a bonus. Some complain about the liquorish smell. I don’t mind.
You’ll also need the proper screwdrivers, hollow ground. I got a nice cheap Chapman set.
You’ll also need a nipple wrench to remove the nipples. Use anti size for spark plugs so they’re easy to remove.
You’ll likely want Rem #10s or CCI #11 non magnum caps. Get several tins at a time as they come and go. Same with powder.
I’m sure there’s more, but those are the basics. Good luck and have fun!
It would be good to have more details on the year of the gun. I say that because there has been variation in how they go about the chamber setup in the cylinders. I have a 76 Ameri Sao Paola (sp?) that has tapered chamber. It won't shave lead. .454 ball works well but it came with .457 (which will go in, harder though).
I don't know rodwah as I am pretty new to the forum.
My preference is to listg what is my opinion and try to present the other side if its in an area of disagreement.
My guess is the Pietta is intended for .454 ball. I have seen lower sizes listed but both Pietta and Uberti of recent vintage list .454. As was noted, you want a reasonable size band of lead (literately a band forms as the ball gets squeezed down if the right size).
The need for lube on the end or a wad is contentious at best. I believe a solid case has been made that as long as the ball is the right size, there is zero need for a wad or lube.
One caveat is that the chamber on each cylinder is checked (ball into said chambers, driven out, band checked to see if its there). There is a chance you get an oval chamber (problems happen) an if its oval, it won't seal.
The newer guns shave lead rings as a good indicator but the 76 ASP did not, it was tapered. I don't know how far back you go to when that was a standard. Keep in mind all those Italian makers have shifted and shuffled and Uberti and Pietta are the remaining ones. Both have inheritance in others such as ASM and ASP.
I keep my cleaning simple. For an Open Top, pull the barrel assembly off, into the sink or a pan, run a nylon brush thoru8hg it (any modern dish soap) and its clean as a whistle. Yes you get some spots of surface rust - I dry mine in a good type dryer (Walamert for drying apple slices and such). Mine is for shells out of a wet cleaning process but they are all the same.
In that case the Balistroll may work to keep the rust off, I may play with it, but have not found it a real issues either. I don't let the rear assembly anywhere close to water. I can clean it and per 45D have it sealed with synthetic grease. I do need to clean the hammer slot and hammer off from time to time but its a simple scraping process.
I have not seen Number 10 caps ever (3 years of shooting BP now?). I take what I can get. Given a choice the RSW 1075 fit the cones. Not sure what a magnum cap is, still learning.
As for screwdrivers, my choice is a multi bit called Megapro (you can get them at Grainger. I have 3 types, HVAC, Electrical forget what the third is. I am picky about tools as I mechaniced since I was 18. I hate multi tools. These have outstanding bits. Hardened, right shape, many choices of slot and philips. You have to look at the choices for the max number of slot bits. I forget which one has most of the slot type. You likely do not need the other bit types but I used them for scope bases, scope rings and other odds and ends of a techg life.
Slix Springs makes the best Nipple wrench. I did ot think it was the right shape and I was wrong, fits to hand nicely. Also very hard to it does not curl the edges like the cheap ones do.
I do not use any lube on the Nipples. I pull them generaly to clena the cylinder (same soap and water) and got to be a pain. They might stick if left too long but they get pulled often enough dry has not been an issue.
The disk would be referred to as a Lubed Wad. I use them as a spacer to see if it shoot better (aka filler). Mixed on that. I also shoot a bit of .451 ball and I use them under that. .451 in my chambers does seal but its a thin band and I don't trust it, ergo the Wad is a prevention use in that case for chain fire.
I don't know rodwah as I am pretty new to the forum.
My preference is to listg what is my opinion and try to present the other side if its in an area of disagreement.
My guess is the Pietta is intended for .454 ball. I have seen lower sizes listed but both Pietta and Uberti of recent vintage list .454. As was noted, you want a reasonable size band of lead (literately a band forms as the ball gets squeezed down if the right size).
The need for lube on the end or a wad is contentious at best. I believe a solid case has been made that as long as the ball is the right size, there is zero need for a wad or lube.
One caveat is that the chamber on each cylinder is checked (ball into said chambers, driven out, band checked to see if its there). There is a chance you get an oval chamber (problems happen) an if its oval, it won't seal.
The newer guns shave lead rings as a good indicator but the 76 ASP did not, it was tapered. I don't know how far back you go to when that was a standard. Keep in mind all those Italian makers have shifted and shuffled and Uberti and Pietta are the remaining ones. Both have inheritance in others such as ASM and ASP.
I keep my cleaning simple. For an Open Top, pull the barrel assembly off, into the sink or a pan, run a nylon brush thoru8hg it (any modern dish soap) and its clean as a whistle. Yes you get some spots of surface rust - I dry mine in a good type dryer (Walamert for drying apple slices and such). Mine is for shells out of a wet cleaning process but they are all the same.
In that case the Balistroll may work to keep the rust off, I may play with it, but have not found it a real issues either. I don't let the rear assembly anywhere close to water. I can clean it and per 45D have it sealed with synthetic grease. I do need to clean the hammer slot and hammer off from time to time but its a simple scraping process.
I have not seen Number 10 caps ever (3 years of shooting BP now?). I take what I can get. Given a choice the RSW 1075 fit the cones. Not sure what a magnum cap is, still learning.
As for screwdrivers, my choice is a multi bit called Megapro (you can get them at Grainger. I have 3 types, HVAC, Electrical forget what the third is. I am picky about tools as I mechaniced since I was 18. I hate multi tools. These have outstanding bits. Hardened, right shape, many choices of slot and philips. You have to look at the choices for the max number of slot bits. I forget which one has most of the slot type. You likely do not need the other bit types but I used them for scope bases, scope rings and other odds and ends of a techg life.
Slix Springs makes the best Nipple wrench. I did ot think it was the right shape and I was wrong, fits to hand nicely. Also very hard to it does not curl the edges like the cheap ones do.
I do not use any lube on the Nipples. I pull them generaly to clena the cylinder (same soap and water) and got to be a pain. They might stick if left too long but they get pulled often enough dry has not been an issue.
The disk would be referred to as a Lubed Wad. I use them as a spacer to see if it shoot better (aka filler). Mixed on that. I also shoot a bit of .451 ball and I use them under that. .451 in my chambers does seal but its a thin band and I don't trust it, ergo the Wad is a prevention use in that case for chain fire.
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I'm not sure exactly what you have.
I suspect you have a brass-framed 1851 Navy in .44 caliber, which was a common fantasy piece produced by Pietta.
I have not heard of an "1860 Navy". There is a Colt 1851 Navy, and a Colt 1861 Navy. The 1860 model is referred to as an "Army" model.
"Navy" revolvers were historically .36 caliber. "Army" calibers were historically .44 caliber.
Pietta makes a brass-framed 1851 "Navy" revolver (hexagonal barrel) in .44 caliber.
If it is .44 caliber, you will find maximum accuracy happens around 18 grains of 3F black powder. You will want to use 3F black powder or Pyrodex P.
You can use greased wads or you can smear lube over the bullet after loading it in the chamber.
You can but its an opinion either one is needed. The design was sucky that a lead ball with a band on it keeps the chain-fire issue at bay.
Come now wesley175 we can’t offer help without pics of said pistol .
Can you clarify that? Colt had a paper on chamfering the chamber mouths to direct any gases from firing away from the other chambers. Lubing the ball after loading serves a dual purpose, keep the fouling to a minimum and keep the chainfires under control. Of course any lube at the front of the cylinder isn't gonna stop a chainfire from the rear of the cylinder.
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I'm a little nervous about some answers as to 'type of powder to use! It must' be black powder and of whatever granulation [+3f 4f 2f etc] Do not use any other type ... no modern smokeless powder. If you already know thus, I apologize for being overly cautious. Dale
PS there are legitimate substitutes for original black. 'Pyrodex is one.
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As Dude said, there is no such thing as a .44 Navy
Your no such thing looks nice
Well, it's an 1851 Colt Navy, but not exactly. 
The 51 Navy was the result of scaling down the Colt Dragoon and was only made in 36 Caliber. You can differentiate it from the 1860 by the octagonal barrel. That's the most noticeable difference right off, but the rammer is different and the 1860 has more rounded lines.
The 44 51Navy is a creation of the retro arms makers, not sure who started it, when or why. But they're popular and why not? They work.
The 51 Navy was the result of scaling down the Colt Dragoon and was only made in 36 Caliber. You can differentiate it from the 1860 by the octagonal barrel. That's the most noticeable difference right off, but the rammer is different and the 1860 has more rounded lines.
The 44 51Navy is a creation of the retro arms makers, not sure who started it, when or why. But they're popular and why not? They work.
One of the first questions I had was about grease over the ball when I thought about shooting the 76 ASP I was given by my wife. I had a BP in the 70s and the goop requirement was a huge mess and my brother still remembers the rant.
So, a lot of research a few years back and my conclusion was that the people who follow the concept of a lead seal vs goop were correct. It makes sense, there was no goop issued with the paper cartridges let alone anything that would not run when it got warm, let alone hot.
I think all of us would like to see the Citation of a Colt paper, chamfering cylinders aka the source?
Now Colt was not the only mfg and no one I know of has cited a source that says a Remington, S&B etc called for and issued goop with their guns. Caps, balls/bullets powder flasks, yes.
I put my confidence in the lead seal (band) and I shoot without the goop. Maybe goop helps fouling and maybe not, I don't care as I run soapy hot water through the barrels and cylinders followed by a Nylon brush and it cleans up just fine, which I would do regardless.
The only variation is I used a lubed Wad when I play with .451 ball (44 cal revolvers). In that case the band is getting pretty thin and its below that that a chain fire starts to occur. .451 seems safe but its also getting close to that tip over point and I do the lubed wads. I like to play with bullets and the .451 are just a test to see if smaller has any affect. I still have most of the original box.
justinoldguy
32 Cal
To address your original question, a pretty standard load is about 30 grains of powder and a round ball of .451-.457. For conicals, 25 grains is about standard. A lubed felt wad over the powder, or grease (I use shortening, but about any concoction will work) over the ball is OK. I prefer a .454 ball, but the others will also work. About any powder will be fine, real black 2f thru 4f (it will be OK, no eyes or fingers will be lost), Pyrodex, or even 777. I actually shoot more Pyrodex RS in revolvers than all others combined. Fills the chambers nicely, compresses well, and in a REVOLVER, will give you more velocity than Swiss 3f for the same volume. Goex is a weak powder, but for punching paper or blasting a can it is fine. I've shot over chronos for 4 decades, I know how all the powders perform, from subs to real black. Pyro RS is cheaper and readily available at most Walmarts. If I want max velocity, for hunting and such, I up the charge to 35 grains of Pyro P, or for even more juice, Hodgdon 777 3f. In my 4 pietta .44 "Navies", I can exceed 1100 fps with those loads and a round ball. Two of those guns shoot conicals well, but hit so high as to be of no use.
Johnnyntrain
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Use 3FFF black powder. 20 to 25 grains is plenty. YouTube has tons of info faster than I can type. You can use a lubed wad between powder and ball, it helps bring ball closer to the barrel forcing cone and is an extra step in sealing the chamber(doesn't hurt to have though not absolutely necessary) Do yourself a favor, rub lube on the arbor , front of cylinder etc. Light coat keeps it running good. If .451 ball shaves a ring of lead ,use it .If not go up to .454. Watch a video.
I had one of those steel framed Pietta .44 Navies, just like yours. It’s basically a standard 1851 Navy frame and grip but with the bigger chambers and bore of the ‘60 Army. I know they’re not supposed to be authentic, but they’re awesome guns! Wish I’d never sold it.
I got great results with 20gr of GOEX FFFg and .454 round balls. I used to slap a little Bore Butter across the chambers after loading. Some brands of caps will need a gentle squeeze before you put them on the cones- making them slightly out of round helps them stay on better.
Enjoy! And if you ever decide you don’t want her anymore, give me a holler.
Jay
I got great results with 20gr of GOEX FFFg and .454 round balls. I used to slap a little Bore Butter across the chambers after loading. Some brands of caps will need a gentle squeeze before you put them on the cones- making them slightly out of round helps them stay on better.
Enjoy! And if you ever decide you don’t want her anymore, give me a holler.
Jay
I would go with at least .454 ball. .451 seals but its getting to be a pretty thin band.
I ran across a loading method that guys were using in competition with C&B revolvers. They were dropping the loading lever into an empty chamber and noting how far it went into the chamber. This was used as the top of the powder charge in the chamber. A cardboard wad was loaded over the powder with a small amount of lube on top followed by the ball or bullet. I have tried it and it does work. On the shaving lead rings I have never seen any documentation from the manufacturer that this is normal practice. On a properly set up revolver those little lead rings can bind up the cylinder by getting stuck between the cylinder and forcing cone. Chamfering the chamber mouths enough to compress the ball in rather than cut lead off really helps and it doesn't change the weight. Pure lead balls will tend to fill in gaps when they are seated and give a good seal. A smear of your favorite lube over the top will prevent the chain fire problem which BTW is why Colt put a slight chamfer on the chamber mouths.
