Flat Face Locks on Northwest Gun?

Smokey Plainsman · Jul 23, 2024

I own a NWTG made off a Pecatonia kit and it has a flat-faced “trade gun” lock made by L&R:

I really like this gun but unfortunately I’ve recently learned these guns should have round-faced locks to be period correct.

I’m disappointed for sure and am just curious how hard it would be to change to a proper round face lock? I wonder if L&R offers such a lock that would be more or less a drop in fit?

Has anyone ever seen or heard of an original NWTG with a flat faced lock?

Thank you all for the help in advance.

-Smokey

rich pierce · Jul 23, 2024

That lock looks to be of a style seen in the last quarter of the 1700s. I see a Barnett NWTG from 1812 with a sporting lock with a flat plate in The Encyclopedia of Trade Goods:Firearms of the Fur Trade page 172. Later American made NWTGs by Deringer and others sometimes used flat faced locks.

As an aside, I advise anyone buying custom guns who is interested in historically accurate re-creations, to spend $500 on books and save a lot of money and hassle. This forum is not renowned for its depth of knowledge, though some here are clearly experts in some areas. Forums in general give an equal voice to the serious student and the “by guess and by golly” enthusiast. So, “well, the folks on the forum said it’s such and such” has unknown value. At the very least buy For Trade and Treaty by Ryan Gale. It’s like $35 or something.

I’ll add that relying on Track of the Wolf or L&R to deliver locks and kits that “are true as advertised” is as ill-advised as relying on Navy Arms, Thompson Center, and CVA to deliver an authentic Hawken rifle.

LRB · Jul 23, 2024

rich pierce said:
That lock looks to be of a style seen in the last quarter of the 1700s. I see a Barnett NWTG from 1812 with a sporting lock with a flat plate in The Encyclopedia of Trade Goods:Firearms of the Fur Trade page 172. Later American made NWTGs by Deringer and others sometimes used flat faced locks.

As an aside, I advise anyone buying custom guns who is interested in historically accurate re-creations, to spend $500 on books and save a lot of money and hassle. This forum is not renowned for its depth of knowledge, though some here are clearly experts in some areas. Forums in general give an equal voice to the serious student and the “by guess and by golly” enthusiast. So, “well, the folks on the forum said it’s such snd such” has unknown value. At the very least buy For Trade and Treaty by Ryan Gale. It’s like $35 or something.

I’ll add that relying on Track of the Wolf or L&R to deliver locks and kits that “are true as advertised” is as ill-advised as relying on Navy Arms, Thompson Center, and CVA to deliver an authentic Hawken rifle.

Listen well to Rich. He knows of which he speaks. Dead on!

Smokey Plainsman · Jul 23, 2024

rich pierce said:
That lock looks to be of a style seen in the last quarter of the 1700s. I see a Barnett NWTG from 1812 with a sporting lock with a flat plate in The Encyclopedia of Trade Goods:Firearms of the Fur Trade page 172. Later American made NWTGs by Deringer and others sometimes used flat faced locks.

As an aside, I advise anyone buying custom guns who is interested in historically accurate re-creations, to spend $500 on books and save a lot of money and hassle. This forum is not renowned for its depth of knowledge, though some here are clearly experts in some areas. Forums in general give an equal voice to the serious student and the “by guess and by golly” enthusiast. So, “well, the folks on the forum said it’s such snd such” has unknown value. At the very least buy For Trade and Treaty by Ryan Gale. It’s like $35 or something.

I’ll add that relying on Track of the Wolf or L&R to deliver locks and kits that “are true as advertised” is as ill-advised as relying on Navy Arms, Thompson Center, and CVA to deliver an authentic Hawken rifle.

Rich,

Thank you so!! I picked this one up from Rick1964 at the Fort de Charters rondy. It’s been a hoot for sure, love shooting it.

So in your estimation it is theoretically possible that my gun could be considered historically correct?

Thanks and God bless!!

waksupi · Jul 23, 2024

Either/or.

https://americansocietyofarmscollec...ploads/2022/04/1966-B14-Indian-Trade-Guns.pdf

Thagomizer · Jul 23, 2024

X2 at what Rich Pierce said. Get the books. I have every piece of print that I could lay hands on about North West guns and am still learning.

Clark Badgett · Jul 23, 2024

I have just about every published work on trade guns. I can think of only one example that looks to have a flat lock. It still has the rounded cock though. English locks look English. This lock has a bit more continental styling. With exception to the sporting styles used during the 1812 war, and the very late percussion guns, most trade gun locks were 6” in length and noticeably rounded at the rear. Shaped a lot like Bess locks.

rich pierce · Jul 23, 2024

Smokey Plainsman said:
Rich,

Thank you so!! I picked this one up from Rick1964 at the Fort de Charters rondy. It’s been a hoot for sure, love shooting it.

So in your estimation it is theoretically possible that my gun could be considered historically correct?

Thanks and God bless!!

As a later trade gun, yes.
Everyone should follow their own standards for historical accuracy.

Is it of a general form common to tens of thousands of English trade guns? Yes.

Is it a close copy of an authenticated original gun known to be used in a specific place at a specific time? No.

Will it be fine for most events that have folks doing historical re-enacting? Yes.

Grenadier1758 · Jul 23, 2024

@Smokey Plainsman, your gun is perfectly fine for the matches at the Gemmer Muzzleloading Gun Club. It is also acceptable for the smoothbore matches at Fort de Chartres, certainly the November Woods Walk. @rich pierce is correct in his assessment.

Rob M. · Dec 28, 2024

Towards the end of the fur trade youll sometimes dee competing fur companies that make their version of a NW trade gun with a flat lock plate , a " sporting " version or a " Chiefs grade " , etc. Deviations from the pattern . The records of H.B. Co. clearly state the parts to be used in N.W. trade gun , round faced locks being part of that description . If you like the lock thats on there , it works well , etc. just point to some of these deviations from." The pattern " for anyone that questions the historical accuracy of your trade gun . Ive changed locks out , unmatching locks and ....well , some were not too difficult , some ...SHEEW !! Quite the chore ! Ive never seen an L&R direct replacement ... I made a few NW fukes from Queen Anne locks and even though they are a bit smaller they didnt look too bad ... See if I still have that pic .... Nope ,couldnt find the Q/A fuke pic ....

Clark Badgett · Dec 28, 2024

There is an original with a flat face lock, or flat enough to appear so, in For Treaty and Trade.

Smokey Plainsman · Dec 28, 2024

Thanks, gang! Love shooting this gun!

Rob M. · Dec 29, 2024

Finally found the pic of one of the NW fukes I made with an L&R Queen Anne lock ... Fast little lock

Flat Face Locks on Northwest Gun?

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