1,200 Yard .45 Cal Sidelock (Rice Barrels 1:17 Twist)

[Davey Boy]

In the World LRML matches in the individual events, you have no spotter. You are all on your own once you hit paper.

Makes it a whole different game when you have to get up after each shot, mark your score, load your rifle and get back down into position, plus you are pair firing with another person. When pair firing, you have to wait on them to shoot, and for the target to be marked and run back up. You do all of this and have to keep an eye on the wind and call your own wind and sight changes.

Stress in a match? Try having misses off the target at 1,000 yards in the middle of your relay and you have absolutely no idea on if you are high, low, left or right. You are racking your brain to determine if you should crank on your sights and what you missed down range regarding change of conditions.

Regarding PP bullets'. I have a World record at 900 yard with a PP bullet. In the 2015 World LRML matches I shot a 67 3V out of a possibility of 75 points. A V is a bullseye. 15 shot match, max points per bullet is 5. I averaged 4.46 points per shot. This was with a Rigby rifle built in 1864. Sometimes everything works, sometimes it does not. The next day at 1,000 yards I had two misses in the middle of my relay. The misses were a great learning experience for me.

Fleener

Ok

I am a lower level learner but even I know what a PP is.

This is not the kind of thing I want to read.

I find it disgusting this language is used.

 

[Nameless Hunter]

Ok

I am a lower level learner but even I know what a PP is.

This is not the kind of thing I want to read.

I find it disgusting this language is used.

 

[ResearchPress]

The setting for the hit may or may not be right for the next shot 30 seconds later without being on a scope and knowing what your looking at. If there was no condition read at the trigger break then there is no reference for the next shot. ..... It takes a spotting scope slightly out of focus at the target to see wind vector and speed.

Agreed. A good spotting scope is an essential piece of equipment, along with a register to keep a note of each shot placement and prevailing conditions, for repeatable performance. With care a spotting scope can be set up so you barely need to move your head from the firing position to glance down and check conditions. Flags on ranges show wind conditions, but mirage reacts quicker to changes - and depending on flag material they may also react differently for the same wind if they've been wet. Head and tail winds can be difficult to deal with in long range, with the shot dropping just short of or just over the target.

David

 

[M. De Land]

Agreed. A good spotting scope is an essential piece of equipment, along with a register to keep a note of each shot placement and prevailing conditions, for repeatable performance. With care a spotting scope can be set up so you barely need to move your head from the firing position to glance down and check conditions. Flags on ranges show wind conditions, but mirage reacts quicker to changes - and depending on flag material they may also react differently for the same wind if they've been wet. Head and tail winds can be difficult to deal with in long range, with the shot dropping just short of or just over the target.

David

I hear repeatedly of shooters hitting Vs at 1000 k and the next shot a complete miss over or under. This is usually wind shear at work. There is also a condition known as false mirage which really balls up the competitor almost as much as a missed reversal.
One should not try to shoot through the shimmer of mirage but hold up for a bit. If the wind is a flat line in the scope then turn your scope into it until the waves slow down enough to get a read. Wind can be used to advantage once one gets it through their head that it must be contended with not ignored if one hopes for any kind of accuracy consistency at extended range shooting.

 

[ResearchPress]

I hear repeatedly of shooters hitting Vs at 1000 k and the next shot a complete miss over or under. . .

Yes much to learn and deal with in long range rifle fire. Watch an aiming mark bouncing around when the mirage is boiling, and how things stabilise some when the wind picks up a little. Mirage is useful in light wind conditions, showing changes that cause little movement of flags. Back to Bisley in August to defend my 'Metford Trophy' win; 15 shots at each distance, 1000, 1100 and 1200 yards. Also have a 900 yard (15 shots) and 1000 yards (30 shots) match in June. Should be interesting not having shot in a year due to range closures / event cancellations associated with COVID.

David

 

[M. De Land]

I had a good night some time ago in a summer solstices 600 yard match. It was late evening , flat light and nearly dead calm. I could not pick up any mirage in the scope and very little wind drift. I was using a .480 grain .45 cal grease bullet fueled with black powder shooting from the prone. I shot as fast as I could before the condition changed and would up with a 99- 4x out of a possible of 100. The score did prove the accuracy of both the rifle and load in calm air and no change conditions. It happened one time in ten consecutive years of competition so although spectacular and fun to tell about can only be relegated to a chance incident when every thing was just right. My regular score at that range was generally in the low to mid 80s with a few X's thrown in and each shot was taken after a careful read on the scope to pick up any condition change. No read shots would often drift out into the 5 or 6 ring and it took quite awhile to gain enough confidence to crank on the sights instead of holding Kentucky as we called it or in other words making no sight correction and holding off center to compensate for a condition change.
I much prefer a steady head or cross wind to a fish tail from the rear or a mirage boil. A steady cross or head wind is almost as easy to crank ( sight dial ) for as a dead calm for consistency.
Billy Dixon himself called his shot at Adobe Wall a "scratch" shot. I'm not even sure he made it with a tang Soule type rear sight, and certainly not a front aperture . The shot was later measured as close as they could figure to be a shade over 1300 yards as I remember it. One very unlucky Native American fellow me thinks!
I forget the name of the Union General now who took a Wentworth ball/bullet through the eye socket from a Rebel at a good range of several hundred yards but it can be done on occasion by reading tree, grass and leaf movement or in a dead calm. A scope a bit out of focus at target is a much more reliable tool of condition read though. The scopes used on the Wentworths probably were used for this as well.
The British officer shot by Timothy Murfpy was a ball hit at what was said to be about 300 yards which is a real shot with open sights and round ball. I'm wondering what caliber the rifle was though as the heavy balls drift less in the wind.
Round balls are a sight to behold through a scope as you can often see them coming down like a meteor at about 200 yards and beyond, when the light is just right.

 

[Beekeeper]

I forget the name of the Union General now who took a Wentworth ball through the eye socket from a Rebel at a good range of several hundred yards but it can be done on occasion by reading tree, grass and leaf movement or in a dead calm.

That was U.S. Major General John Sedgwick at Spotsylvania Court House. Supposedly, he'd made multiple comments throughout the morning basically saying the Confederate Sharpshooters were too far away to hit anyone. He took a bullet to the face from a Parker-Hale Whitworth rifle while on his horse.

 

[M. De Land]

That was U.S. Major General John Sedgwick at Spotsylvania Court House. Supposedly, he'd made multiple comments throughout the morning basically saying the Confederate Sharpshooters were too far away to hit anyone. He took a bullet to the face from a Parker-Hale Whitworth rifle while on his horse.

Thank you

 

[ResearchPress]

That was U.S. Major General John Sedgwick .......He took a bullet to the face from a Parker-Hale Whitworth rifle while on his horse.

Killed whilst rallying his men, but on foot or horse and an aimed shot or did he just move in front of the bullet. No evidence that it was fired from a Whitworth, but definitely not one of the 20thC repros. by Parker-Hale.

David

 

[Rudyard]

That was U.S. Major General John Sedgwick at Spotsylvania Court House. Supposedly, he'd made multiple comments throughout the morning basically saying the Confederate Sharpshooters were too far away to hit anyone. He took a bullet to the face from a Parker-Hale Whitworth rifle while on his horse.

Really ? didn't know Parker Hale made any Whitworths OR "Wentworths" ?? that early .Ime not saying that sort of bullet wasn't there just not the two rifles .! I think you mean Whitworths Just a typo I do them all the time . Rudyard

 

[Beekeeper]

Really ? didn't know Parker Hale made any Whitworths OR "Wentworths" ?? that early .Ime not saying that sort of bullet wasn't there just not the two rifles .! I think you mean Whitworths Just a typo I do them all the time . Rudyard

No, the Parker-Hale was a typo/brain fart. The Confederacy did bring Whitworth target rifles through the blockade--how many I don't know. They were used in both the Eastern and Western Theatre of the war, but not in enough numbers to change the course of the war. Research Press, might have an idea as to how many were brought in.

 

[M. De Land]

Let me see....the OP hit the 20" square on his second shot at range at 1200 yards with iron sights and somebody wants me to believe the OP does not know anything about long range shooting?

He has much to learn of mid and long range shooting but if he stays at it and listens to experienced people who do this regularly he could become a fine distance rifleman. I would suggest anyone who wants to learn how to read wind get a copy of Jim Owens book on the subject. He was a Marine long distance shooting coach and the little, easy to read book, is one of the best on the subject.
The Brits were the first I know of to get this long range muzzle loading shooting figured out and competed against the American Team at Creedmoor in I think 1874 with muzzle loading percussion rifles. We beat them and it was another big blow to their national pride.

 

[ResearchPress]

The Confederacy did bring Whitworth target rifles through the blockade--how many I don't know.

According to Pritchard & Huey's 'The English Connection', it is doubtful if more than fifty Whitworth rifles were imported during the war.

David

 

[ResearchPress]

The Brits were the first I know of to get this long range muzzle loading shooting figured out and competed against the American Team at Creedmoor in I think 1874 with muzzle loading percussion rifles. We beat them and it was another big blow to their national pride.

From the first NRA(UK) annual rifle meeting in 1860 there were matches out to 1000 yards. In 1873 Ireland beat England and Scotland for the first time in the Elcho Shield match (teams of 8 competing at 800, 900 and 1000 yards). Ireland subsequent sent a challenge to the USA that resulted in a match between Ireland and USA at Creedmoor in 1874. The Irish Team using their Rigby muzzle loaders were defeated by the Americans using Sharps and Remington breech loaders.

David

 

[M. De Land]

From the first NRA(UK) annual rifle meeting in 1860 there were matches out to 1000 yards. In 1873 Ireland beat England and Scotland for the first time in the Elcho Shield match (teams of 8 competing at 800, 900 and 1000 yards). Ireland subsequent sent a challenge to the USA that resulted in a match between Ireland and USA at Creedmoor in 1874. The Irish Team using their Rigby muzzle loaders were defeated by the Americans using Sharps and Remington breech loaders.

David

Thanks for the correction Dave. I had a brain toot and was thinking it was the Brits. You are quite correct when I think on it for a bit.

 

[Bill M.]

This thread would have been so much more pleasant if Mr De Land would have just started his own instructional program and left this thread alone. Who wants to hear all this over and over? You must have a insecurity problem anyway. So what if you know more than the OP.

 

[GREENSWLDE]

Was it not the case that the americans only won as an unnamed Irishman put one shot on the wrong target?? David,please correct me if I am in error..OLD DOG

 

[ResearchPress]

Was it not the case that the americans only won as an unnamed Irishman put one shot on the wrong target??

Yes, J.K. Millner of Ireland fired on the wrong target, and despite hitting the bull's-eye, score was zero. Had it been on his target Ireland would have won the match by one point. This was teams of six with each man firing 15 shots at each distance, 800, 900 and 1000 yards - so a very close run match. At the subsequent international matches in 1875, 1876 and 1877 the Americans remained undefeated.

David

 

[ResearchPress]

This thread would have been so much more pleasant if Mr De Land would have just started his own instructional program and left this thread alone. . . . . So what if you know more than the OP.

Surely one of the benefits of a forum is that those with different experience can share views. That exchange of knowledge is how we all learn. There have been useful points raised in the discussion.

David

 

[M. De Land]

This thread would have been so much more pleasant if Mr De Land would have just started his own instructional program and left this thread alone. Who wants to hear all this over and over? You must have a insecurity problem anyway. So what if you know more than the OP. Shut upabout it.

The information given is accurate and useful to aid the OP in his quest if he employs it. Is it better to be quiet when you see someone struggle with an issue, possibly get frustrated and give up and you can help and don't? Truth liberates, silence enslaves! There is always more to be learned of any subject for any one !