1-48" or 1-66" twist T/C HAWKEN

[davy]

Now Davy, do you think ol' John is serious when he says that everyone will be on the same level when we bench the guns???

Just thought I would throw that at you.

That would be almost as bad as saying " Hey let's all stand on our hind legs and shoot at 50yds." Ya think ol John is trying to bait em' in??

rabbit03

I will say it this way ... ya shoot agin thet ol codger ... ya mite bitter bring a sack lunch ... cuz ya mite be thar a whille! :cursing:

I reckon ol John ... he musta plumb skeered off tha competition hyar abouts. Ya wanna wager? :rotf:

Davy

 

[Stumpkiller]

Well, I've got two 1:48" rifles and one 1:66" rifle. What I ain't got is a bench out in the woods where I shoot or sandybags. :haha: None of 'em are flint T/C Harwkens, or even similar to each other, so it throws too many other variables in for a goood comparison.

But I always thought the 1:48" was excellent out just past 50 yards. The ball hasn't had the chance to realize it's been cheated until just about then. :winking:

 

[harryo]

Now Davy, do you think ol' John is serious when he says that everyone will be on the same level when we bench the guns???

I think he is completely serious. Using a benchrest eliminates as much of the operator factor as possible, without using a shooting vise. Of course, such a contest still requires any participants to be on their honor as far distance is concerned but we are all honorable men, aren't we? In case you are unaware of it, similar shooting matches are conducted every other month under the Members Shooting Competition forum.

I, for one, would be happy to submit a target for a slow twist barrel but if there is not some pretty good participation from both camps, it won't mean much,but it would still be interesting.

 

[JOHN L. HINNANT]

Greetings All,

Now Davy, I seriously doubt that I have scared off any competition. You can by tell by reading the many postings, this forum is full of "Sporting Gentlemen" who find a "good game" of interest.

I suspect more than a few need more of a challenge to dirty up their favorite ML rifle.

So..... Let us make it a money pot shoot. I will start by pledging $20.00, cash American money. All other interested parties can pledge any amount they are comfortable with.

Claude, would you volunteer to hold the pot?

Mr. Stumpkiller, if you think 50 yards is not a good range, what is your suggestion? I would like for everybody to be comfortable with the rules. Traditionally over the log shoots were shot at 60 yards, but we need to keep in mind, some shooters might have range rules limitations.

And speaking of such, regarding "bench rest and sand bags", I think a reasonable alternative, like shooting prone over a log with a pad or reasonable facimile thereof could be allowed.

Does anybody else want to make a suggestion?

Let me throw in a few more rules.

1. Patch round ball only. If anybody objects to the use of Teflon coated patch material as too much advantage, we will throw it out.

2. Traditional styled hunting rifles: must be capable of carrying a usable ramrod. No target rifles like the old Schutzen style.

3. Any flint lock or percussion lock (except inlines; I personally do not object to them, but some here do).

With a rest, a percussion cap rifle does not have an advantage over a flint lock. I have seen too many flinters beat cap locks under these conditions.


4. 10-1/2 pound weight limit. Most of the old time Hawken's weighted 10 to 10-1/2 pounds.

Rabbit03..., I fear you do me an injustice. Accusing me of, "baiting" It was my simple intention to issue the "challenge" and let others run with it. Sbinajiles said it all, when he defined the forum members as "honorable".

This is just a simple challenge between the gentlemen with the fine shooting shallow groove 1-48" rifled barrels and the opposing gentlemen who are of a different opinion.

One might say this a proposed contest between the "jack handle" riflemen and the "none jack handle" riflemen. (I must admit that my tonge was in my cheek, as I wrote that last sentence).

Well now.....Since there is money on the table, how many of you "Sporting Gentlemen" are in the game?

How about you Mr. Stumpkiller, Davy, Rabbit03, and Sabinajiles?

Best regards and good shooting,

John L. Hinnant

If you are not an NRA Member, why not? I am carrying your load.

 

[Walks with fire]

I have a 1/66 twist that could be submitted as well. I don't have years of experience shooting but from a bench I should be able to hold up pretty good. Mossie

 

[walruskid1]

john, you are truly a gentleman. i may have to borrow a 1-48 hawken just to participate.

 

[davy]

Lets go for it John ... I'm in $20 bucks on the table! :blah: I double dog dare yas! :grin: You did say I could use my 12 foot barreled log gun right? :rotf:

Davy

 

[TANSTAAFL]

Hey Stumpkiller, I need to pick your brain on this one, as I have never owned a TC.

I picked up a used TC flinter today in what appears to be (when gauged) .45 caliber, but, the browned barrel is 32 inches long, with no markings whatsoever? Could this be a Green River replacement barrel? If so would you know the twist for it?

 

[harryo]

Is this just for T/C barrels? I don't have a 1:66" T/C barrel but I have a handful of 1:70" GM barrels. If I can use one of them, I'm in.

 

[Stumpkiller]

Could be Green River, I think Orion also offerred swap-out T/C barrels. Easy way to determine twist is to put a tight patch on the jag and pull it out slowly until you get a half turn. Double the measurement of the amount you withdrew it for the twist.

 

[JOHN L. HINNANT]

Greeting Sabinajiles,

I will attempt to clarify the bottom line of my challenge.

A number of the forum members are shooting factory barreled muzzle loading rifles that have shallow grooved 1-48" rifling twist. These gentlemen claim they can shoot these rifles just as accurately with a variety of powder charges as the gentlemen that have perference for the deep groove slower rifled twist barrels.

The GM 1-70" Green Mountain barrel is representative of the deeper groove, slower rifling twist barrels. What the barrel is fitted on is not that important. For example, a number of members have replaced their factor barreled rifles with GM IBS Drop in barrels.

So I thought the setting was perfect for my challenge. The competition is to be between the advocates of the factory rifles regardless of manufacturer) with the factory barrels that have the shallow groove 1-48 rifling twist VS the advocates who claim superior accuracy is achieved with barrels that have deep groove rifling and a long slow twist.

I would define the slower rifling twist as any twist slower than 1-48. Groove depth might be more difficult to define, I think anything under .008 would be about right for the 1-48" shallow grooved barrels.

Factory rifles with the long slow deep groove rifling would be the JBMR, Santa Fe Hawken, Ithaca-Navy Arms Hawken, the new Pedersoli Hawken, and others I did not think of.

I would not want anybody who wants to line up on one side or the other to not be able to participate.

This challenge is just for fun, and I do not want anybody to get their BVD's in a twist.

So now, I as I see it, let us settled this argument (now we all know this difference of opinion is never going to be settled) with a shooting match for bragging rights.

Now the next question is, what kind of target? Yes, I do have a reccomendation, but will wait to see what everybody has in mind.

I see that Davy has raised the stakes by another $20.00. Anybody else in for the shoot OR the optional pot?

Best regards and good shooting,

John L. Hinnant

If you are not an NRA Member, why not? I am carrying your load.

 

[rabbit03]

Hi John L., I will up it another $20.00 US.

Of course I will be on the slow twist side too.

PS. I aint seein' much outa them there 1:48 folks yet. Guess their waiting on the money to get right.


rabbit03

 

[Stumpkiller]

How about you Mr. Stumpkiller, Davy, Rabbit03, and Sabinajiles?

"Mr." Stumpkiller? You take that back!

I'm not sure which side I should shoot on. Have to be the slow twist, as my 1:48"s are both percussion. But I never said they weren't accurate. :winking:

For a target you could download the 50 yard NRA free from this link.
[url] http://www.gamecalls.net/free_stuff/targets/50yd NRA.pdf[/url]

 

[davy]

"Mr." Stumpkiller? You take that back!

I'm not sure which side I should shoot on. Have to be the slow twist, as my 1:48"s are both percussion. But I never said they weren't accurate. :winking:

For a target you could download the 50 yard NRA free from this link.
[url] http://www.gamecalls.net/free_stuff/targets/50yd NRA.pdf[/quote][/url]

Well iffin I read it rite .. it could be percussive or flinter .. take your pick! I have both but, .... but still have a flint "flinch" to work out, so I will use my TC Renegade (yes with the burnt up stock ... Dammit :cursing with the 1:66 GM 50 cal barrel on it! :thumbsup:

I may not win ... but I reckon I can cause some to limp a little goin back home! :rotf:

Davy

 

[rabbit03]

Hello John L.. For some reason it appears that most people either are not up to the challenge for whatever reason or they can not put THEIR money where there mouth is!

Checking the posts that have been made versus the views it seems that less that 1 in 10 people care to have an opinion or to take up the challenge here that you have offered up. Could it be that most (9 out of 10) know that this would be an exercise in futility to attempt to challenge the slow twist people with their 1:48?

Just thinking out loud here I guess but I had thought there would be an abundance of takers especially when there was money on the table.

Personally I have shot the 1:48 factory stuff years ago (bout 34 years) and know without a doubt that the slow twist deep groove is far superior. My own observations back then were basically a group of about 1 1/2 " with the ol' 1:48. The 1:66 I went to (Green Mountain) was by far more accurate giving me a ragged hole containing 5 rounds at 50 yds. I could cover them there 5 shots with a quarter. And this is the very reason my money is in your corner.

Still can't figure why no one has taken the challenge by now with so many views.

rabbit03

 

[davy]

Now dont git it started Rabbit, iffin thim folks dont think they can win, its their rite to do so! :grin:

Davy

 

[Walks with fire]

Mr. Hinnant,
I have a question that has been giving me fits for a spell. I have a TC PA hunter 31" barrel 50 caliber 1/66" twist rifle. Now please don't say its my sighting because I am sure it is not. This rifle will group at 50 yards around an inch, 2" at 75 and 8-10" at 100 yards. I am shooting 90 gr. of ffg Goex and .018 pillow tick ox yoke pre-lubed patch. Why would this rifle open up so dramatically after 75 yards? There is not much wind when I am doing this testing. Please note that I am shooting a 1/28 twist barrel at the same time with 250 grain xtp Hornady bullets out of a RMC Accusporter rifle and getting 2" groups at the same 100 yard target. Why does this rb rifle open up after 75 yards so much? I just can't get it to group out to 100 yards. Is the ball losing rotation or velocity at 75 yards and becoming unstable in flight. Should I try to shoot more powder to get the speed up? Would 3f help? It's not my eyes or my sights. Any suggestions? Thanks. mossie

 

[JOHN L. HINNANT]

Greetings Mossie,

To be completely honest, I do not have a clue. Nothing I can think of would explain why accuracy falls off so dramatically after 75 yards. I have never experienced this problem before or have seen anybody have this problem. So for now, I am fumbling in the dark.

Assuming that mechanical wise, the rifle is in tip-top shape, let us start with some of the more simple problem areas.

To begin with, the 90 grain black powder charge is very adequate to maintain enough velocity and projectile rotational spin to 100 yards plus some.

Next, do you cast you own balls or buy them? If you cast, are you weighing each ball?

Are you using pure lead if you cast? What ball diameter size are you using? In most 50 calibers, cases, use nothing smaller than .495. There are of course, exceptions.

Can you find some .500" size balls to try?

By the way, who made your barrel?

Let us start with these points for now.

Best regards and good shooting,

John L.Hinnant

If you are not an NRA Member, why not? I am carrying you load.

 

[Walks with fire]

Mr. Hinnant,
The rifle is a stock TC Pennsylvania Hunter with a 31" 1/66" twist barrel that has .010 deep rifleing, I believe it is cut rifleing. I have shot .490 Hornady balls with .015-.018 patches, and Remington .490 balls with the same patches. I shoot at paper plates from the bench and the rifle provides a good sight picture when aimed at the 100 yard target. After the shot I think, now that one is in the bull but when I get out there it is not even on the plate. If it were wind they would be pushed one way or the other but these shots have a shotgun pattern out at 100 yards but groups into 2" at 75 yards. It is really strange. I just can't get a combination in that barrel that works for me. I don't want to shoot beyond 100 yards but I need to be within 3-4" at that range and it should be able to do that according to the 75 yard groups. I like shooting rb but I don't have much confidence in the 50 cal rb at 100 yards. Perhaps a 230 grain 54 cal would reach out to 100 yards better. I should be able to find some .495 Hornday balls but don't recall ever seeing any .50. Thanks mossie

 

[harryo]

If it were wind they would be pushed one way or the other but these shots have a shotgun pattern out at 100 yards but groups into 2" at 75 yards. It is really strange. I just can't get a combination in that barrel that works for me

Are you absolutely sure the problem is just that you can't see well enough, at 100 yds, to accurately sight the rifle? This is the problem many have, including myself, when shooting longer distances with open sights.