1:48 twist and round ball?
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Dave Rosenthal
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I earned my NRA Distinguished Expert using a 48-twist.
I earned Cap Lock Champion 2010 at Garden State Black Powder Association using a 48-twist.
I earned Percussion Champion in the Conical Division the last 5 years at Old Bridge Rifle & Pistol Club using the same inexpensive 48-twist .50 caliber Lyman Trade Rifle.
With a nice tight patch 48-twist does real nice :wink: so don't let anybody tell you it's just so-so!
What ever you decide to buy, just concentrate on your breathing, sight picture and trigger squeeze. And don't forget to have FUN, cause that's what it's all about!
BE SAFE & Have FUN!
Dave
I earned Cap Lock Champion 2010 at Garden State Black Powder Association using a 48-twist.
I earned Percussion Champion in the Conical Division the last 5 years at Old Bridge Rifle & Pistol Club using the same inexpensive 48-twist .50 caliber Lyman Trade Rifle.
With a nice tight patch 48-twist does real nice :wink: so don't let anybody tell you it's just so-so!
What ever you decide to buy, just concentrate on your breathing, sight picture and trigger squeeze. And don't forget to have FUN, cause that's what it's all about!
BE SAFE & Have FUN!
Dave
Hi sdhunter.
The 1:48 twist that is commonly used in many factory made muzzleloaders is a compromise twist.
It is intended to be suitable for both patched roundballs and solid lead slugs.
Because it is intended for slugs the barrels usually have fairly shallow rifling by muzzleloading standards. The reason for this is that deep rifling that the patched roundballs prefer doesn't seal the solid lead slugs well.
That said, most of us have found that when shooting patched roundballs from these 1:48 twist barrels with rifling grooves that range from .004-.007 deep a fairly thick cloth patch is needed. This is especially true if heavy hunting powder loads are going to be used.
I recommend using a .015-.018 thick cotton patch with your .490 roundballs.
Lubricate it with either a commercial patch lube like Bore Butter or with lower cost lubes like Crisco, Olive Oil, Cooking Oil or build yourself some of Stumpkillers Moose Juice.
These .015-.018 thick patches will make your .490 diameter roundballs almost impossible to start into the muzzle unless you use a "short starter".
These short starters usually look like a wooden ball with two short dowels sticking out of them.
One dowel is very short and it is used to get the ball/patch started into the bore. The longer dowel is used to drive the ball/patch down far enough that the ramrod will be guided by the bore for driving the load the rest of the way down to the powder charge.
Usually it only takes a light smack with your hand on top of the starter to get the ball/patch started into the bore.
These short starters can be bought or made and they can be made from a ball or just a 2 X 2 X 3/4" piece of wood and a 3/8" diameter piece of dowel.
The 1:48 twist that is commonly used in many factory made muzzleloaders is a compromise twist.
It is intended to be suitable for both patched roundballs and solid lead slugs.
Because it is intended for slugs the barrels usually have fairly shallow rifling by muzzleloading standards. The reason for this is that deep rifling that the patched roundballs prefer doesn't seal the solid lead slugs well.
That said, most of us have found that when shooting patched roundballs from these 1:48 twist barrels with rifling grooves that range from .004-.007 deep a fairly thick cloth patch is needed. This is especially true if heavy hunting powder loads are going to be used.
I recommend using a .015-.018 thick cotton patch with your .490 roundballs.
Lubricate it with either a commercial patch lube like Bore Butter or with lower cost lubes like Crisco, Olive Oil, Cooking Oil or build yourself some of Stumpkillers Moose Juice.
These .015-.018 thick patches will make your .490 diameter roundballs almost impossible to start into the muzzle unless you use a "short starter".
These short starters usually look like a wooden ball with two short dowels sticking out of them.
One dowel is very short and it is used to get the ball/patch started into the bore. The longer dowel is used to drive the ball/patch down far enough that the ramrod will be guided by the bore for driving the load the rest of the way down to the powder charge.
Usually it only takes a light smack with your hand on top of the starter to get the ball/patch started into the bore.
These short starters can be bought or made and they can be made from a ball or just a 2 X 2 X 3/4" piece of wood and a 3/8" diameter piece of dowel.
thanks for the replies guys, i just keep hearing this "compromise" twist that cant take hunting charges of 80-90 grains without burning riflings. truth is a lefty doesnt have much choice unless i go to the lyman gpr but i like the looks and price tag on the lefty hawkens as well. i just want to feel confident and accurate at 80 to 100 yards after several hundred round balls, if the 48 twist can do it then that is what i will buy.
hanshi
Cannon
I've written before that 1-48" is NOT a particularly fast twist by any stretch of the imagination. I've had great accuracy from 1-48" with prb as I do not shoot slugs of any kind. And to top it off the barrels in question had rather shallow rifling. Just load them up sufficiently snug and they shoot just fine.
The only problem with OTC rifles in 1-48" is that they normally do come with shallow grooves, often too shallow. When a too loose prb is fired in such a barrel, the prb "skips" the rifling resulting in poor accuracy. This twist was often used during the 18th and 19th century and probably earlier. In fact for smaller bores (less than .45) it comes close to being ideal.
The only problem with OTC rifles in 1-48" is that they normally do come with shallow grooves, often too shallow. When a too loose prb is fired in such a barrel, the prb "skips" the rifling resulting in poor accuracy. This twist was often used during the 18th and 19th century and probably earlier. In fact for smaller bores (less than .45) it comes close to being ideal.
I feel that I can confidently say that there is absolutely NO black powder load that will "burn the rifling" in any muzzleloader ever built.
The idea of "burning" rifling does apply in modern cartridge guns shooting very powerful "hot" powder loads but it just doesn't happen in a black powder gun.
Black powder does not create enough heat to erode the steel the barrel is made from.
As for 80-90 grains of powder this is a fairly common amount used by many muzzleloading hunters in their .50 caliber Thompson Center rifles and these use the 1:48 twist.
The thing with muzzleloading rifles is each one of them will shoot one load with greater accuracy than any other load. Even guns made with the same barrel by the same maker will differ when it comes to the "best load". The only way to find out which load is actually "best" for your gun you will have to shoot it, trying different powder loads.
Most of my .50's like 80 grains of powder under their patched roundballs but as I said, each gun is different.
The idea of "burning" rifling does apply in modern cartridge guns shooting very powerful "hot" powder loads but it just doesn't happen in a black powder gun.
Black powder does not create enough heat to erode the steel the barrel is made from.
As for 80-90 grains of powder this is a fairly common amount used by many muzzleloading hunters in their .50 caliber Thompson Center rifles and these use the 1:48 twist.
The thing with muzzleloading rifles is each one of them will shoot one load with greater accuracy than any other load. Even guns made with the same barrel by the same maker will differ when it comes to the "best load". The only way to find out which load is actually "best" for your gun you will have to shoot it, trying different powder loads.
Most of my .50's like 80 grains of powder under their patched roundballs but as I said, each gun is different.
Pete Gaimari
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This should make you feel better.
I have a Renegade .54 with 1-48 twist. I also have a GM barrel 32" 1-70 twist for it.
I know the GM barrel should shoot a PRB better than the TC barrel.
It doesn't. That TC barrel will knock the eye out of a gnat if I do my part.
I have a Renegade .54 with 1-48 twist. I also have a GM barrel 32" 1-70 twist for it.
I know the GM barrel should shoot a PRB better than the TC barrel.
It doesn't. That TC barrel will knock the eye out of a gnat if I do my part.
thats amazing capper, i have been spending alot of time on gunbroker and the renegade is one of the most auctioned left handed rifle on the site. i just didnt like the 24" barrel but maybe it would be worth it because i would prefer the .54 but it just isnt available in a left handed hawken of any kind. keep the good info coming guys!!!! :hatsoff:
Pete Gaimari
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I picked the Renegade over the Hawken, because I have to shoot left handed. The Hawken has to be left handed, because of the cheek piece. The Renegade doesn't have one, so it shoots the same from ether side. Having the lock on the wrong side is a non issue.
jtmattison
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My Lyman Trade Rifle will stack balls one on top of the other at 50 yards with 90 grains Goex 2F, .535 ball, and ticking patch.
As already said, 1:48 is by no means a fast twist. Matter of fact, I mold several different conicals in .54 and none of them are very accurate in 1:48. Not even the T/C Maxi-Ball which was supposedly designed for the 1:48 twist. To me 1:48 proves too slow for conicals but great for roundball.
HD
As already said, 1:48 is by no means a fast twist. Matter of fact, I mold several different conicals in .54 and none of them are very accurate in 1:48. Not even the T/C Maxi-Ball which was supposedly designed for the 1:48 twist. To me 1:48 proves too slow for conicals but great for roundball.
HD
Pete Gaimari
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Keep in mind the original Hawken was 1-48 twist.
Probably had deep grooves though.
Probably had deep grooves though.
Pete Gaimari
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I thought that too, but the hammer isn't in the way of the sights.
So far as I know every original Hawken rifle measured has had a 48" twist.
While 48" will shoot bullets its a long way from being the best for pickets or maxi balls etc.
It will allow heavy powder charges with a RB so long as the rifling is cut for a patched ball and not .004 deep for a "naked" bullet. The shallow grooves in the TC rifles are what gave the 48" twist a black eye with modern shooters.
Its GOOD round ball twist for calibers to at LEAST 54.
I wish GM had staid with 48 for everything up to 50 - 54 but the 50 cals are 70". Shoot great. But I feel is marginally too slow.
Dan
While 48" will shoot bullets its a long way from being the best for pickets or maxi balls etc.
It will allow heavy powder charges with a RB so long as the rifling is cut for a patched ball and not .004 deep for a "naked" bullet. The shallow grooves in the TC rifles are what gave the 48" twist a black eye with modern shooters.
Its GOOD round ball twist for calibers to at LEAST 54.
I wish GM had staid with 48 for everything up to 50 - 54 but the 50 cals are 70". Shoot great. But I feel is marginally too slow.
Dan
Pete Gaimari
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The one plus for the GM barrel is the length. It holds much more steady offhand.
well i have been watching a renegade on gunbroker for 250 starting bid. it has been up for auction for over a month and nobody has bid on it. the seller has an A+ rating. is this a good price for a used renegade .54 left hand???
Pete Gaimari
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Left hand Renegades are rare. I never could find one.
Another option is right on this forum in the classified section. Jethro is selling a Renegade that looks nice. It also has a Williams peep sight.
It's $300, but i'd rather buy from Jethro than a stranger on an auction. Plus the Williams sight is around $70 new. I'll buy the sight if you don't want it. My crappy eyes can use it.
http://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/pp-classifieds/showproduct.php/product/6352/cat/9
Another option is right on this forum in the classified section. Jethro is selling a Renegade that looks nice. It also has a Williams peep sight.
It's $300, but i'd rather buy from Jethro than a stranger on an auction. Plus the Williams sight is around $70 new. I'll buy the sight if you don't want it. My crappy eyes can use it.
http://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/pp-classifieds/showproduct.php/product/6352/cat/9
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longcruise
70 Cal.
I thught renegades had 26" barrels. Never measured one so I don't know for sure. Maybe Capper can measure his for us.
Never measured one so I don't know for sure. Maybe Capper can measure his for us.
I've had great luck with my .54 Lyman trade rifle and it's 1:48 rate of twist, enough to take first place at a couple of club shoots. Lyman lists a 110 grain max powder charge using 2f but since every rifle is different you will have to work up the best combination for yours. I suggest that you also try some 3f in your 50 caliber as mine prefers that over 2f. Unfortunately the TR does not have a left hand option but I am left handed and it doesn't bother me a bit. In fact I am selling a LH Cabelas Hawken because I like a little more drop in the stock and am keeping my RH trade rifle.
