What is a good quench for 1075/1080 steel? Working on a stock removel blade right now. My knife I made last year was out of 5160 steel and not really knowing what I was doing I just heated it to non magnetic and did the quench in some warm hydrolic fluid. I tempered it using the info on Tidewater blacksmith chart. It turned out really well though. Holds a lasting edge, might have just got lucky.
1075/1080 quench
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A fast cooling quench is best for these. I would recommend canola oil, heated to maybe 125°.
5160 works best with a medium speed oil which it would seem that you used. Because of it's chrome content, it is at it's best when soaked at at a temp from between 1475° and 1500° for a time, but works well enough with simple methods. Contrary to Tidewaters info, non-magnetic is not enough heat for any steel to reach it's potential, and will fail to sufficiently harden many steels. The magnet is good for telling you where you are with the heat, and that you need one or two more shades of red to reach a good heat for quenching. What you are after is to bring the carbon and iron together in an homogeneous solution. The carbon will not dissolve completely and mix well at non-magnetic, and in the case of 5160, the chrome takes more heat and time to disperse evenly.
5160 works best with a medium speed oil which it would seem that you used. Because of it's chrome content, it is at it's best when soaked at at a temp from between 1475° and 1500° for a time, but works well enough with simple methods. Contrary to Tidewaters info, non-magnetic is not enough heat for any steel to reach it's potential, and will fail to sufficiently harden many steels. The magnet is good for telling you where you are with the heat, and that you need one or two more shades of red to reach a good heat for quenching. What you are after is to bring the carbon and iron together in an homogeneous solution. The carbon will not dissolve completely and mix well at non-magnetic, and in the case of 5160, the chrome takes more heat and time to disperse evenly.
Wick might be the better person to answer this question, but a light oil, Canola oil or peanut oil, works pretty well for a quench meduim.
I would, however heat your steel a coupla color ranges above nonmagnetic, in shaded light.
Nonmag is roughly 1400-1450 degrees, and not hot enough to get the most out of your steel. The temp you want is 1550 degrees, soaked for a few minutes, longer is better, and quenched in light oil.
Be sure to keep the temp above nonmag when you are soaking the steel, because the steel will remain nonmagnetic at lower temps, once it becomes nonmagnetic. So, the moral of this last sentence is nonmagnetic is not a good way to monitor the temp of a piece when soaking.
What all this means is, using a magnet is good for a general idea of what the color is, just below critical temp. Remember that red color as a guide to prevent reducing the temp, and increase the heat until the color begins to move into the red-orange to orange range. Remember that color and soak at that temp for at least 20 minutes, then quench.
Always heat steel slowly, the slower the better, so's the temp on the inside reaches the same temp as the outside before quenching.
God bless
PS, dang Wick, your quick. You posted before I finished my reply.
I would, however heat your steel a coupla color ranges above nonmagnetic, in shaded light.
Nonmag is roughly 1400-1450 degrees, and not hot enough to get the most out of your steel. The temp you want is 1550 degrees, soaked for a few minutes, longer is better, and quenched in light oil.
Be sure to keep the temp above nonmag when you are soaking the steel, because the steel will remain nonmagnetic at lower temps, once it becomes nonmagnetic. So, the moral of this last sentence is nonmagnetic is not a good way to monitor the temp of a piece when soaking.
What all this means is, using a magnet is good for a general idea of what the color is, just below critical temp. Remember that red color as a guide to prevent reducing the temp, and increase the heat until the color begins to move into the red-orange to orange range. Remember that color and soak at that temp for at least 20 minutes, then quench.
Always heat steel slowly, the slower the better, so's the temp on the inside reaches the same temp as the outside before quenching.
God bless
PS, dang Wick, your quick. You posted before I finished my reply.
Twice boom
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While I am in agreement with Wck and J.D . I must though ,say that if you are planning to discard the magnet then you best get your self some electronic stuff to help you know where you are with the steel's temp or learn to know by color. If you should choose to learn to go by color alone you have to always pick the right time of day or do it in low dim light. Now as the magnet goes ,chances are by the time the metal has been demagnetized your heat has already traveled by a hundred degrees or higher.
Like I said in another post that heat treating is not an exact science. Besides I like to think all that work with metal as artisans and not professional heat treating houses. If I had to buy heat treating furnaces and pro quenching oils I’ll find something else to do with my time. No rights or wrongs just this man’s opinion..
Twice.
Like I said in another post that heat treating is not an exact science. Besides I like to think all that work with metal as artisans and not professional heat treating houses. If I had to buy heat treating furnaces and pro quenching oils I’ll find something else to do with my time. No rights or wrongs just this man’s opinion..
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Heat treating is an exact science with the proper equipment, and there are rights and wrongs with or without HT equipment. Without, there is some guess work, but it can be done reasonably correct. You acually did nail the reason that the magnet seems to work for some, in that they have allowed the blade to gain more heat than the non-magnetic temp, 1414°, and don't realize it. Much the same as the belief by some that you can hammer pack the cutting edge to a finer grain. It is the multiple heats that are used while "packing" that acually does the job, and not the hammer. In both cases one might get very close to the right results, but not for the reason believed.
Twice boom
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. I agree. One thing though. When you hammer pack the blades edge you hammer pack it at very low heat. If that's not so, then I been doing it wrong for a very long time with good results. :grin:
I've also been told or read that the more times you bring an object up to forging heat you tend to burn part of the carbon in the metal. That is why many believe that you can put back the lost carbon in metal by packing the metal in charcoal and let it cool in air free atmospheric environment
Anyway, it all boils down to feel and experience right or wrong. .
Twice
I've also been told or read that the more times you bring an object up to forging heat you tend to burn part of the carbon in the metal. That is why many believe that you can put back the lost carbon in metal by packing the metal in charcoal and let it cool in air free atmospheric environment
Anyway, it all boils down to feel and experience right or wrong. .
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What do you think happens when you austenitize the blade for quenching? What you've done to the grain with the hammer is nullified, as the larger grains eat the smaller that you have broken up when the steel is brought up to austenitizing heat. The only way grain size is reduced, is by heat cycling. Period. Hammering at low heat does no more than damage the iron matrix causing unnecessary stressing, with possible micro cracking later. Packing the edge is merely a waste of time and effort, and a myth that just doesn't die, much like quenching at non-magnetic, or in relation to magnetic north. Oh fudge. I have probably opened up another can of mythical worms with the latter part of that.
Twice boom
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Yep that's exactly what happens when you think about it. I guess the good results I been getting have all been purely accidental...
Do tell, I have not heard about the north pole thing.
Twice.
Do tell, I have not heard about the north pole thing.
Twice.
J.D. said:
Well JD with all due respect but a 20 minute soak time with 1075/1080/1084 is likely to cause grain growth problems, once up to heat any of the 10xx steel from 1065-1084 need no more than a 5 minute soak at most....
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The only thing I would add, is that grain growth is more a product of temp, usually somewhere over 1500°, rather than time. All steel benefits from a soak, but with the steels mentioned, I would not attempt any soak time over a matter of seconds without some good form of heat control, which is very difficult, under simple conditions, or long term experience. One should get a good usable blade without a real soak. Not the best, but good enough. A five minute soak should be near perfect at a full austenitization heat for those steels, 1450° minumum, to 1480° ideally. 1095 can do better with a few more minutes of soak in order to evenly distribute the extra left over carbon, but what you say is pretty much it. The steels mentioned are pretty much fool proof as far as heat treating in a simple, or primitive manner, as long as one follows established basics of steel metallurgy, which unfortunately, escapes many iron pounders. As usual, you pretty much know of what you speak. Hope you are doing well. Wick
Howdy Wick - hanging in their but that's about it - ongoing health problems plain suck!
And yes as you noted heat is the biggest factor and I should have noted that since JD had mentioned 1550°.
As for "edge packing" I agree that it doesn't break up and/or make the crystals smaller, but on the other hand I have a feeling that what the old timers were experiencing was work hardening of the edge - a documented and verifiable scientifically, something not often mentioned when discussing the subject, especially when one considers the period steels along with wrought iron used. Edge hardening itself though is a complicated subject and even then heat will change the steels grain and structure.
And yes as you noted heat is the biggest factor and I should have noted that since JD had mentioned 1550°.
As for "edge packing" I agree that it doesn't break up and/or make the crystals smaller, but on the other hand I have a feeling that what the old timers were experiencing was work hardening of the edge - a documented and verifiable scientifically, something not often mentioned when discussing the subject, especially when one considers the period steels along with wrought iron used. Edge hardening itself though is a complicated subject and even then heat will change the steels grain and structure.
FWIW - here's some technical info on 1070 & 1080 that will fit pretty close for any of the 10xx series from 1065-1085. There will be differences though in the chemical make up so it's always important to get the info for each batch of steel used IMO especially the Manganese content...
1070 AISI
Carbon 0.65 to 0.75
Manganese 0.60 to 0.90
Phosphorus 0.040 Max
Sulfur 0.050 Max
Shallow hardening, widely used in spring-tempered condition. Used extensively for hand tools such as hammers & woodcutting saws. As quenched hardness approximately 65 HRC
Forging max heat 2175 degrees F.
Do not forge below 1500 degrees F.
Normalizing - heat to 1625 F and cool in air.
Annealing - heat to 1525 F. Furnace cool to 1200 F at a rate not to exceed 50F per hour.
Hardening ”“ heat to 1500 F and quench in water or brine. Small sections (such as knife blades) may be oil quenched for full hardness.
Austempering thin sections (typically springs) gives hardness of 46 to 52 HRC. Austenitize at 1500 F and quench in molten salt bath at 600 F for at least one hour. Let air cool no tempering required.
Martempering ”“ austenitize at 1555 F and martemper in oil at 345 F.
1080 AISI
Carbon 0.75 to 0.88
Manganese 0.60 to 0.90
Phosphorus 0.040 Max
Sulfur 0.050 Max
As manganese content increases, hardenability is greater. As carbon content increases the free carbides enhances abrasion resistance. As quenched hardness approximately 65 HRC
Forging max heat 2150 degrees F.
Do not forge below 1500 degrees F.
Normalizing - heat to 1600 F and cool in air.
Annealing - heat to 1500 F. Furnace cool to 1200 F at a rate not to exceed 50F per hour.
Hardening ”“ heat to 1500 F and quench in water or brine. Small sections such as knife blades may be oil quenched for full hardness.
Austempering thin sections (as for 1060) gives hardness of 46 to 52 HRC. Austenitize at 1500 F and quench in molten salt bath at 600 F for at least one hour. Let air cool no tempering required.
1070 AISI
Carbon 0.65 to 0.75
Manganese 0.60 to 0.90
Phosphorus 0.040 Max
Sulfur 0.050 Max
Shallow hardening, widely used in spring-tempered condition. Used extensively for hand tools such as hammers & woodcutting saws. As quenched hardness approximately 65 HRC
Forging max heat 2175 degrees F.
Do not forge below 1500 degrees F.
Normalizing - heat to 1625 F and cool in air.
Annealing - heat to 1525 F. Furnace cool to 1200 F at a rate not to exceed 50F per hour.
Hardening ”“ heat to 1500 F and quench in water or brine. Small sections (such as knife blades) may be oil quenched for full hardness.
Austempering thin sections (typically springs) gives hardness of 46 to 52 HRC. Austenitize at 1500 F and quench in molten salt bath at 600 F for at least one hour. Let air cool no tempering required.
Martempering ”“ austenitize at 1555 F and martemper in oil at 345 F.
1080 AISI
Carbon 0.75 to 0.88
Manganese 0.60 to 0.90
Phosphorus 0.040 Max
Sulfur 0.050 Max
As manganese content increases, hardenability is greater. As carbon content increases the free carbides enhances abrasion resistance. As quenched hardness approximately 65 HRC
Forging max heat 2150 degrees F.
Do not forge below 1500 degrees F.
Normalizing - heat to 1600 F and cool in air.
Annealing - heat to 1500 F. Furnace cool to 1200 F at a rate not to exceed 50F per hour.
Hardening ”“ heat to 1500 F and quench in water or brine. Small sections such as knife blades may be oil quenched for full hardness.
Austempering thin sections (as for 1060) gives hardness of 46 to 52 HRC. Austenitize at 1500 F and quench in molten salt bath at 600 F for at least one hour. Let air cool no tempering required.
Wick Ellerbe said:
From experience, to get the best out of a knife blade, the edge only must be quenched in urine of a 30 year old blond virgin while aligned with magnetic north, only at midnight, and only in the waning of the moon. :blah: :blah: :v
Twice boom
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J.D. said:
If she was 30 and virgin I'd stay the hell away from her. :rotf:
Twice.
Capt. Fred
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Wick I've got a question- Where do you get your information on this? Is there a good reference book about the proper handling of the different common steels we use? Something a simple old carpenter could read to learn about these details.
LaBonte- Real sorry to hear you are feeling ill. You and Wick are some of the folks who always add some real interesting information to any discussion. I hope you will fare well.
LaBonte- Real sorry to hear you are feeling ill. You and Wick are some of the folks who always add some real interesting information to any discussion. I hope you will fare well.
hoochiepapa
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La Bonte, I know your pain. I have been sick since 1990, and it never gets better.
Don't be offended, please, but I will keep you in my prayers. :thumbsup:
Mike
Don't be offended, please, but I will keep you in my prayers. :thumbsup:
Mike
I use Texaco "Quenchtex B". This is a medium/fast oil meant to be used in unheated oil quench tanks.
This is available in 5 gallon pails.
I favor actual quench oils vs. others, as they are formulated for high temp applications. Ius e this oil for all of my liquid quenching, and It will add another couple of hardness points for air-hardeners like A-2
Another good medium/fast oil is "Imperial S"
This is available in 5 gallon pails.
I favor actual quench oils vs. others, as they are formulated for high temp applications. Ius e this oil for all of my liquid quenching, and It will add another couple of hardness points for air-hardeners like A-2
Another good medium/fast oil is "Imperial S"
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You sir are a heretic. Why would anybody waste money on commercial quench oils when one can buy lard or vegetable oils at the grocery store, or a few quarts of motor oil? :idunno: Unless of course, one might want a superior quench oil that has been specially formulated to give the maximum results to the chosen type of steel by controlling the cooling rate of said steel as recommended by those who produce it, and have spent thousands of dollars and man hours testing hundreds of different formulas to find the best one for a given steel type. Beats me. :thumbsup: :hatsoff:
BigDeutscher
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Wow
So I cant just heat it up in the fire to a glowing red
Then throw it in the sloppy side of the rancid lard bucket
What ifin I am in a hurry
Deutsch
You guys are great
So much info brought up in these posts
I thank you all for sharing, no REALLY !
I love it
So I cant just heat it up in the fire to a glowing red
Then throw it in the sloppy side of the rancid lard bucket
What ifin I am in a hurry
Deutsch
You guys are great
So much info brought up in these posts
I thank you all for sharing, no REALLY !
I love it
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