10ga Powder/Shot loads

[Dane]

Just about to finish another Chamber's NE Fowler.

Any advice on starting loads "powder and shot"??

 

[Mike Brooks]

1 1/4 oz to 1 1/2oz shot and equal volume of powder. I've shot as much as 2 5/8 oz shot and 130gr powder on occasion...it kicks a little though.

 

[paulvallandigham]

These are from the Hodgdon Reloading Manual.

FFg, 3 3/4 Drams( 102 grains) MV= 1059, 1 1/4 oz. Shot, for a " Light load ".

FFg, 4 drams( 110 grains ), MV 1033, 1 1/2 oz shot, for a " Medium Load."

FFg, 4 1/2 Drams ( 124 grains), MV 1067, 1 1/2 oz. Shot, for a " Heavy Load ".

That should give you a start.

Pedersoli has some loading information on their website. You might check that. There is also information in the back of the Dixie Gun Work's Catalog, and in Lyman's Black Powder Notebook, Second Edition.

YOu can always load DOWN, and often improve pattern density doing so.

Remember that increasing the size of the gauge with Black Powder shotguns does Not give you higher velocities, or extended range. These are still 30-40 yard guns, depending on what, if any, choke may be in the barrels. A 10 Ga. BP shotgun is NOT the equal to a 10 ga. modern shotgun for killing birds at longer ranges.

Note that the velocities are under 1100 fps. This is on PURPOSE. 1100 fps is generally used to determine the speed of sound, although the actual SOS varied depending on altitude. Staying below the SOS helps to hold pellets together, for better pattern density.

However, Shooting heavy 12 gauge loads in a 10 gauge barrel will give you less felt recoil, with more dense patterns, containing more of the pellets that leave the muzzle, than if that same load is fired from a 12 gauge barrel. That is the real advantage of shooting the larger gauges, and the only reason to shoot them.

Work on your loads with plenty of newspaper at a patterning board. There is a thread on this topic that involves using paper shotcups, with the cups slit in 4 places from the front of the cup about 1/2 way down the length of them. The owner found a substantial improvement in the number of pellets that were in his pattern at 25 yards, compared to shooting the same shot load without the cup. He includes pictures of his two patterns, and also a picture of the fired cup, and explains how it was formed. Very good stuff on this site.

Best wishes for you. If you find a very good load, please post the information for the rest of us. Thank you. :thumbsup: :hatsoff:

 

[Dane]

Mike,

I also understand that going a little lighter on the powder, heavier on the shot will give denser patterns???

This thing is jug choked to a modified choke.

Paul,

I really don't want to get into shot cups, etc if I can help it.

I'd like to stay with traditional methods, wads, shot etc, if I can.

It may come to that, but I'd like to try it without, first.

Thanks

 

[MercerLake]

:v I shoot a 10ga. double cylinder/cylinder bore, and have the most dense patterns by:
1. Keep the overpowder wad column short, about bore dia in length. About 1/2 a fiber wad and 2-3 OP cards.
2. More shot by volume than powder, slower is GOOD! Typically 80 gr FFg with 110 grain volume of shot.
This gives me very dense even patterns, works great on Sporting Clays. And real birds, I've had #4 go clear thru grouse at 20-30 yards. Dead bird!
Have fun!! :v

 

[Mike Brooks]

Mike,

I also understand that going a little lighter on the powder, heavier on the shot will give denser patterns???

This thing is jug choked to a modified choke.

Paul,

I really don't want to get into shot cups, etc if I can help it.

I'd like to stay with traditional methods, wads, shot etc, if I can.

It may come to that, but I'd like to try it without, first.

Thanks

Dane,
Since you have jug choke you will have no worries with shot cups etc. With your jug choke that gun will shoot just about any load you care to put in it. Use a fiber cushion wad and a thick nitro over the powder to get a good seal and keep velocity up. Don't be afraid to stoke that thing up, you won't hurt it. :thumbsup:

 

[Mike Brooks]

Remember that increasing the size of the gauge with Black Powder shotguns does Not give you higher velocities, or extended range. These are still 30-40 yard guns, depending on what, if any, choke may be in the barrels. A 10 Ga. BP shotgun is NOT the equal to a 10 ga. modern shotgun for killing birds at longer ranges.

That simply isn't true. I have customers that have worked extensively with long barreled flint ten bores with .035 jug or better. These things will out shoot modern ten bores in turkey hunting situations. They have consistent killing range to 50+ yards. The thing most folks with modern shotgun thinking fail to realize is you are not restricted by the capacity of the modern shot hull in a muzzle loader.

 

[Dane]

Mike,

Thanks for your help.

I hope to have it finished up this weekend.

I'll try to get some photos posted by Sunday. Awesome piece of Cherry.

Good Lord willing and the creek don't rise, I'll shoot it the following weekend, and let you know how it works out.

Thanks for all your help.

 

[paulvallandigham]

This is the second time you have taken the time to use a STRAW Man FAllacy to argue with something I wrote.

First, the poster did not mention his gun has any JUG choke in it. MY ANSWER was written in light of that failure, and addresses cylinder bore barrels.

BUT YOU have to talk about JUG CHOKED guns giving bettern range, to call me a liar! YOU stuff it Mr. Brooks.

Anyone knowledgeable about shotguns knows that using choke in a barrel helps hold the shot pattern closer LONGER, and gives you better killing range. I am not sure how much killing you are going to do at 50 yards, unless you are also using LARGE sized shot, where the weight of the individual pellets retains energy over longer ranges, but I would certainly concur in your statement that loading the gun hotter, IN A CHOKED BORE, will give you better patterns at longer range, and will, using the correct size shot, give you kills at those longer ranges.

For the other readers: Choke helps to overcome the natural forces that force pellets to separate when they are fired above the Sound Barrier( nominally 1100fps.) Because so much velocity is LOST by shot in the first 20 yards, bringing the velocity over the next 20 yard down below the sound barrier, CHOKE in the barrel acts to keep the shot moving inward towards itself, rather than separating, while the full load of shot is slowed by air resistance.

The True benefit of using Choke is when you keep the velocity below the SOS( speed of sound, or Sound barrier), in a choked barrel. Now, you have tighter patterns, and with heavier shot, you get more pellet energy on the bird for a clean kill.When you use a cylinder bore gun, and shoot loads under the SOS, you get tigher patterns, because they don't blow apart as fast as they will if they leave the barrel above the SOS.

In my cylinder Bore DB shotgun, I have killed pheasants cleaning at 33 yards, paced off. I am confident that I can kill pheasants with that gun and my load of 2 3/4 drams of powder and 1 1/4 oz of #5 shot( in a 12 gauge) out to 40 yards. MV is around 1035 fps.

In my full choked modern gun, firing the same load, using an equivalent amount of PB smokeless powder, I have starburst a clay bird 50 yards from the end of my barrel. That requires a lot of pellets hitting the target, with retained energy. The FULL CHOKE provides the dense patterns for this to take place.

I do not consider taking shots at game at 50 yards to be sporting, regardless of the pellet size, or capabilities of the barrel, so I will not take such a shot at a live bird. However, I shot for years with a good friend who, in his much younger days, DID take such shots, with success, and killed birds out past a paced off 60 yards, in front of witnesses, using the same load in a full choke gun. When I told him of my personal hunting ethics limitation on shots, he tried to convince me to " lighten up " and take such shots, assuring me that the load would kill the birds out there. I had looked at some of the patterns at those longer ranges, and they were too thin, in my opinion, to do the job with any reliability.

I have a good friend who regularly shoots his 8 gauge gun using 6 drams of powder, and 3-4 oz. of shot! His reasoning is to fill in his patterns by shooting so much more shot. His barrel is not choked.

If you do put a lot more shot in the barrel, it will decrease the velocity that you get. Just look at the three loads I posted from Hodgdon: The more shot compensated for the increase in powder, and the velocity at the muzzle stays within about 35 fps for all three- light to heavy loads.

Jim Rackham's idea of using ONLY OS cards in loading his smoothbore fowler is worth trying. He uses 4 OS cards on top of his chosen powder charge. He puts a dab of lube between the 3rd and 4th OS cards before running all 4 down onto the powder. Then, after he puts in his shot charge, he uses 2 OS cards to hold the shot in the barrel. All the OS cards have an off-center hole poked into them with an awl, and he places them so that no two holes are in line with each other. The holes allow air to separate the cards when they leave the muzzle of your gun, so the cards fall quickly out of the flight path of your load.

I don't know what make or kind of barrel the poster has on his 10 gauge shotgun. I don't know what kind of steel its made from, or who made it. I would not tell him to " go ahead and load 'er up" 'cause she can take it, until I knew that information, or had a chance to visually inspect the gun myself. Certainly, large bore shotguns are very forgiving when it comes to building pressure. But, that assumes a lot of things, including him using ONLY BLACK POWDER, and using the correct grade of black powder in the gun. A very heavy charge may not blow up the gun, but it can crack the stock.

If a load is not giving the shooter some real benefit, but creates more recoil forces that affect the stock, and the shooter's shoulder, I just am not going to recommend it. I have a few friends with cannons to shoot, who I can talk to about letting such a shooter fire the cannons, if what he is looking for is making a really big bang- safely. If he's not interested in being safe, I don't want him around me. :hmm: :thumbsup:

 

[Dane]

Boys, Boys, Boys,

I didn't mean to start a war, :nono: just get some basic information. :surrender:

Mike,
I appreciate your input. I know that you have had much experience with the long barreled, big bore fowlers, and trust your expertise.

Paul,

Thank you for your input as well. I'm sorry I failed in my first post to reveal the jug choke.

It is jug choked to ( I think .035,modified choke), and like I said, I'd like to NOT complicate things with shot cups, etc.

I will use the info that both of you advised, and hopefully get some great patterns for turkey, and goose.

Right now, all I have is #6 shot, should I assume I need to go with something a little larger as well??

 

[paulvallandigham]

Dane: This doesn't involve you at all. Mr. Brooks has been sniping at me for some time, and I have had it. I have tried to just ignore him, but some times that is not possible.

As for choosing shot for your game, you need to first consult your Game Regulations to find out what size shot you can legally use to shoot certain species. Geese are Migratory Waterfowl, and are controlled by Federal laws. The laws require Non-Toxic( ie, NOT LEAD) shot be used. I don't find any satisfactory non-toxic shot to use in your kind of gun on the market yet, at any reasonable price, unless you actually buy modern shotgun shells, and cut them apart to get the shot to use in your fowler. Ecotungsten probably will be the best shot for fowlers, and other older style guns, but its not been on the market long enough for people to find it, much less run tests on it. And, all those non-lead shot need some kind of shotcup to protect your barrel. Sorry.

Turkey can still be hunted in most states using lead shot. There are two schools of though, based on the maximum range the shooter plans to fire at a bird. One school prefers using smaller sized shot, like #7 1/2, because of the huge number of pellets in such loads. They help insure many hits on the bird's vital neck and head area, to kill the bird with that one and only shot you get. This school of thought has a lot of following with people who are shooting cylinder bore guns, and limit their shots to 25 yards, or less.

The second school prefers heavier shot, like #6, #5, and #4 for turkey. There are fewer pellets, but each pellet carries so much energy that you only need one good hit on the neck or head to kill the bird. Because the pellets carry the energy fairly well, shots can be taken out to 30 yards, and even further with the two larger shot sizes. For shooters with guns that are choked, this often is their chosen approach to selecting pellet size for hunting game.

Between the two schools are the guys, who shoot choked guns, who choose #6 shot to get a good number of shot in their load, and still reach out to 35 yards or 40 yards. Individual guns and their chokes determine how much further you can kill turkeys beyond the 40 yard mark.

And, just to confuse the situation, there are other shooters, shooting both cylinder bore, and choked barrels, who mix their shot, so that they have #4, #6, and sometimes, #7 1/2 shot in the same load. Try them all if you have the patience, and interest.

As for using your gun to shoot upland game, stick with the same size shot recommended for modern shotguns to kill these same birds.

I use #8 trap loads for shooting dove; #5 shot for killing pheasants. I have hunted chukkar,( partridge) with both #5 and #7 1/2 shot.

A good sized bird like Grouse will fall to #7 1/2 or #6. I would not use #5 for fear of tearing these birds up too much. Shots tend to be fast, and close. Wood grouse don't often give you a long shot where you can let your load of #5 shot spread out enough to NOT tear up the bird.

Quail are little birds, and I would use the same load I currently use on Dove.

Be mindful of that choke when hunting upland game: I once had my full choke barrel on my 12 gauge, when hunting pheasants, expecting long shots. We spooked up a group of cocks at about 2 yards, and I had to intentionally hold off to one side of the bird in order to have anything left to eat! I had to shoot quick, because the bird was trying to put a brush pile about 10 yards from me, between him and me, so if I didn't shoot, I would nothave any shot at all. Just as I shot that bird, another cock came up out of the brush pile, and flew towards me. At about 12 feet of the ground, I shot in front of his nose so that only 1 pellet hit the bird in his head, and dropped him next to my left foot! 2 birds, 2 shots, and all in about 5 seconds. Neither of the shots were at more than 3 yards, with a full choke 12 gauge !! YIKES! Can you imagine what would have happened to the birds if I Had centered them with my loads?

Enjoy your new gun. :thumbsup: :hatsoff:

 

[Mike Brooks]

YOU stuff it Mr. Brooks.

:blah:
I'm sure you know something about something Paul, but your damned posts are so long and cover so much irrelevant territory I can never figure out what point you're trying to make. :yakyak:
Just get to the damned point and write your book on your own time. :snore:

As for using your gun to shoot upland game, stick with the same size shot recommended for modern shotguns to kill these same birds.

Another load of bull. Always load a size or two larger in a muzzle loader. With muzzle loaders it's MASS that kills, not speed. In hunting situations I like #4's for most beasties except ducks and geese. If your going to shoot flint guns forget everything you knew about modern smokeless shot guns, it simply doesn't apply.

 

[paulvallandigham]

Sorry to disagree with Mr. Brooks, but my experience shooting upland game tells me different. I don't insult him for his views, I simply disagree with them.

I don't know why Mr. Brooks gets away with making insults here, when others are banished from the forum for similar behavior. Perhaps Claude will enlighten us.

 

[Mike Brooks]

I don't know why Mr. Brooks gets away with making insults here, when others are banished from the forum for similar behavior. Perhaps Claude will enlighten us.

Nothing personal, just trying to steer large bore flint shooters to some reliable information from the 30 years I've been shooting large bore flint guns in competition and in the field. You load them the way you want and I'll load them the way that works for me. Just because you can deliver a long winded dissertation on a subject doesn't mean there aren't better ways of doing things. Nor does it mean you have the privilege of being the only one heard. Your actual experience with muzzle loading flint shot guns is sorely lacking in my opinion, no matter who's book you're quoting word for word from.

 

[Roy]

In response to Paul...

"A good sized bird like Grouse will fall to #7 1/2 or #6. I would not use #5 for fear of tearing these birds up too much. Shots tend to be fast, and close. Wood grouse don't often give you a long shot where you can let your load of #5 shot spread out enough to NOT tear up the bird. "

I have shot quail with as large as #5 shot. When hunting where I have, you do not get the option of knowing what the dog is pointing. It can be a pheasant, quail, rabbit, turkey and even deer. Not shooting at the last two obviously. If you hit a quail with #5's you are only going to hit it with 2 to 3 pellets at the most, unless its only a few feet from the end of the barrel. If its that close its ruined anyway. So I know that a quail and a ruffed grouse is not the same but I think you get my point.

 

[Roy]

oh yeah meant to add they make a good table bird with such little damage... and usually you get complete pass through with the one or two pellets.

 

[paulvallandigham]

Disagreeing with my comments is fair enough. However, you have NO idea about my experience with any kind of gun, and those comments are just more of your insufferable insults. When are you going to grow up? :cursing:

Dane asked for help in locating load information for his new gun. I gave him the best information I have on loads, after checking three sources. I told him about other sources he can read. Dane asked about choosing shot size, mentioning hunting Geese and Turkey. I believe I gave him the information he needs to make his own choice. I believe your comments about using a shot size 2 sizes larger than what you use in modern guns sounds like you have confused choosing Steel shot vs. lead shot, for choosing shot for mlers, vs. modern guns. NOwhere did I speak about, or even use the words, " Steel Shot " in my discussion of Non-toxic shot requirements for geese.

I would never recommend the use of Steel Shot in any MLer shotgun, even in those guns where the manufacturer says they are safe for that use. As Dane has indicated, he would rather avoid using any kind of shotcup, and even in modern guns, shotcups are used to protect the barrels. What the non-toxic shot will do to anyone's choke, or jug choked barrel after extended use, can only be guessed, but even with the use of plastic shotcups in modern barrels, steel shot has been shown to wear grooves in the chokes, and ruin them. Slamming tungsten pellets into a choke Can't be good for it, either.

 

[Mike Brooks]

Disagreeing with my comments is fair enough. However, you have NO idea about my experience with any kind of gun, and those comments are just more of your insufferable insults. When are you going to grow up?

Well, ok.....I've been reading your posts for several years. It has become obvious you read more about how to load a muzzle loading gun than you actually load one your self. My comments aren't intended as insufferable insults, I'm just pointing out the fact that you usually pile on the BS when you don't really know what you are talking about on a subject. Usually the longer the post the less you actually know what you're talking about. This is only my opinion and observation of course, of several years of your posts. Other people may feel differently about your long winded dissertations. Grow up? I'm 51 with 28 years experience of shooting flintlock fowling guns. Big bored and small , long barreled and short, jug choked and cylinder bored, one thing they all have in common is flint ignition. I'm a successful hunter, skeet and sporting clays shooter, and hold a national record at Friendship in the flint feather duster match. I think I'm more than qualified to shoot down BS when I see it.

Dane asked for help in locating load information for his new gun. I gave him the best information I have on loads, after checking three sources. I told him about other sources he can read.

And there in lies the problem. You've read a whole bunch of books on the subject written for modern smokeless powder ballistics and plastic hulls. The problem with that is Dane is shooting a long barreled ten bore with a bunch of jug choke and flint ignition. Your information for modern smokeless ten bores just doesn't give the correct information for Dane's gun, in fact it really limits the potential for that particular gun.

I believe your comments about using a shot size 2 sizes larger than what you use in modern guns sounds like you have confused choosing Steel shot vs. lead shot, for choosing shot for mlers, vs. modern guns. NOwhere did I speak about, or even use the words, " Steel Shot " in my discussion of Non-toxic shot requirements for geese.

Nor did I ever use any mention of steel shot. I've never used it and never will. If the question was about steel shot I would bow to your windy dissertation on the subject taken from what ever modern source you we quoting from. My advice for him was for lead shot and was given through 28 years of experience shooting large bored flint shot guns in the field. I never read it in a book, I learned it from practical experience in the field.

I would never recommend the use of Steel Shot in any MLer shotgun, even in those guns where the manufacturer says they are safe for that use. As Dane has indicated, he would rather avoid using any kind of shotcup, and even in modern guns, shotcups are used to protect the barrels. What the non-toxic shot will do to anyone's choke, or jug choked barrel after extended use, can only be guessed, but even with the use of plastic shotcups in modern barrels, steel shot has been shown to wear grooves in the chokes, and ruin them. Slamming tungsten pellets into a choke Can't be good for it, either.

This is completely irrelevant to the subject since nobody here mentioned steel shot. But, it is very typical of your posts. :yakyak:
And with that, I have to go get my stuff ready to go shooting....fine way to celebrate the 4th! :thumbsup:

 

[Mike Brooks]

By the By, this is my last response on this thread, unless Dane requires any more info. So, you can fire you last shot of outrage if you would like. :haha:

 

[Dave K]

Well, as the bull S^^t flies, so does the shot pellets. :v Anyrate,I have used the books and found the info great, to get a good start. Then it is off to the patterning board and find what works for you and your gun. I also chose not to use shot cups and if enough time is spent on the patterning boards, you will find a few very good loads that work great for you and your shooting style. Use the printed info as a guide line, then go out and shoot the finding exactly what you both like. For me, in my 10ga. and actually all my shotguns, I use an over powder card, a fiber shot cushion that is 1/4" thick lubed with olive oil and one over shot card. Now this works for me and works great. Just last week, I was shooting trap with the 10ga. I was soot balling clay birds, with 2 3/4 dr. of 2f and 1 1/4oz. of 7 1/2's. I was standing at 10yds. behind the trap house and breaking the birds about 25-30yds. in front of the trap house. My gun is an old 10ga. Mortimer SxS perc. gun, with 31 1/2" cyl.bored barrels.