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#11 caps or musket caps

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Mark Lewis said:
They are not hotter. They are the same as #11s just bigger.


:shocked2: I tend to respect your opinion but this dont make much sence....
Sorta like saying there aint no differance between 50 grains and 100; 100 is "just bigger"
I DO believe it, too, when specific temps are given; Muskets are twice as "hot" (in degrees) as #11's.
:grin:
 
The following was borrowed from a post on another site. I think it gives some interesting information that relates to this topic;

"On page 83 of DaveEhrig's book "Muzzleloading for Deer & Turkey", he lists some information on percussion caps and primers.

#11 standard cap - 6.53 cc of gas at 3,024 degrees F when fired.

#11 magnum cap - 7.59 cc of gas at 3,717 degrees F when fired.

U.S. #2 musket cap - 14.36 cc of gas at 3,717 degrees F when fired. "

It doesn't take much thought to see that the Musket cap and the #11 Magnum cap are about 23 percent hotter than a standard #11 cap.

Perhaps the more interesting item is the volume of gas created by these caps.
The #11 Magnum creates about 16 percent more gas while the Musket cap creates 120 percent more gas than a standard #11 cap.

Although I don't have a way to measure such things these numbers do support the results I've personally seen in my percussion guns.
 
Sounds like a full time job! I think if I had all that money to spend on caps I would have ordered a couple of really nice custom flintlock guns instead. 'Course then we'd probably have to listen to why bevel up is better than bevel down or vice versa--and how a 100,000 flints had been sacrificed to prove it... :rotf:

My musket caps are definitely more potent than my #11s. Probably haven't fired off enough of them to be sure though. :stir:
 
Zonie said:
Perhaps the more interesting item is the volume of gas created by these caps.
The #11 Magnum creates about 16 percent more gas while the Musket cap creates 120 percent more gas than a standard #11 cap.

To me, that's the biggest downfall of the magnum and especially the musket cap. I can see their usefullness in lighting off the substitutes, but the extra gas they emit doesn't help consistency any. The most consistent accuracy comes from the ball being in exactly the same spot when the powder begins to burn. The higher powered caps can move the ball forward a bit before the main charge has lighted off fully. How far the ball moves depends on tiny variables like the amount of lube on each patch, the temperature of the barrel (heat expansion), humidity, friction from fouling, etc. These tiny variables don't effect the push generated from the main charge as much as they do the tiny push from the caps. The less the caps push the ball, the better.

On guns designed for those caps, there's no problem. The problem comes when using them on guns that aren't made for them. I guess if someone needs to light off substitutes, then you do what you need to do.

I guess it's no big deal if the gun is just for hunting. Maybe I've been a benchrest shooter for too many years, but I'm a fanatic about wringing every tiny bit of accuracy I can out of anything I shoot. I haven't tried musket caps, but I have tried the magnums. No thanks!

I do like the size and shape of musket caps. If they made them the same power as a standard cap, I'd use them in a heartbeat. They are much less fumbly than the tiny #11s, and I drop my share of those everytime I go shooting.
 
Plink: If I were forced to use The Substitute powers, and magnum caps, I would for sure use OP wads in my rifle, too. Even more than one, depending on performance. I have already found that using an OP wad seals the gases behind the PRB much better than any patching material and lube, or loading procedure. This using BP. I think the OP wads delay movement for just a few milliseconds, giving the powder time to burn, and the temperature and pressure in the powder " chamber" to rise.

I know that using Hornet's nest tends to delay firing as well as increase Velocity and provide a fire wall between the powder and the PRB.

I hope never to be faced with such a choice, as my guns are primarily flintlocks. But, I still shoot a percussion DB shotgun, and enjoy it.

If you want to test a shot load in any smoothie for velocity, and are worried about putting holes in your chronograph screens, wrap the shot load up into a paper packet, and then shoot it across the screens. You are testing MV, and not patterns. It doesn't matter that the shot goes over the screen in a packet. :hmm:

BTW: I was reading a piece by Paul Matthews on the .45-70 Springfield, and he has gone to using small Pistol Primers to ignite his Black Powder loads in those cartridges. He even had someone make a batch of metal sleeves to put in his primer pockets so he could used the small pistol primers, instead of large rifle primers. He gets much better SDV and groups at 200 yds with the smaller primers. His discussion of why he switched was along the same concerns you express here, only he was obviously worried about the larger rifle primers pushing the bullets forward in his casings. He testing seems to prove that the thesis is correct. That tends to support your comment here that magnum primers tend to push the PRB forward before the powder is burned, changing the size of the powder chamber, and affecting both velocity, and chamber pressures.

I just ask people if they have ever fired a standard cap off in any gun at night, with the lights out, and watched how much flame comes out the barrel. Standard caps put out a 10+ inch flame in my .39 inch .50 caliber rifle barrel, back when I had a percussion lock on it.

I see no need to use musket caps, or magnum caps, in ordinary rifles, using BP. :hatsoff:
 
I can see the point about accuracy, just like cartridge reloading where magnum primers are not recomended unless absoulutly necessary. I never noticed any loss of accuracy on my guns, I acutualy found a slight improvement. but every gun is different, and I don't shoot alot of paper from the bench, mostly steel gongs offhand or hunting. my perception of increased accuracy may just me geting better with practice! but what I don't understand is how flintlockers on this forum are so anal about chasing that 100% reliability dream, agonizing over bevel up vs. down, coned & sunrised vents, banking the powder, picking the vent, etc, etc, and yet these same guys put down the powerfull & relible old musket cap as an un-needed excess! when yer bacon is on the line and you need your gun to go bang no matter what (damp weather, patent breech, fake powder, normal bad luck or murphy's law), the musket cap is the tool. that's why the millitary used them - reliability and ease of use, not accuracy!
 
Call me a suspicious old geezer and it won't matter, cuzz it happens more and more these days.

But if I was match shooting, especially bench or chunk gun, I don't think I'd give up on musket caps so fast in "not affecting accuracy."

I don't know that for sure, and I doubt anyone else here on the board does either.

I've spent too many years shooting centerfire benchrest and varmint guns to write off any small thing that might shrink my groups .000000000000000001". I had a rifle that loved one lot of CCI primers, yet grew close to .10" in grouping with a change to another. Same brand, same factory, everything. I searched all over tarnation finding more from that same production lot, and got enought to keep shooting for a couple of more years. And when I ran out of them, I sold the rifle.

If I was shooting BP matches, I don't think I'd be satisfied that I'd wrung every little bit of accuracy from a gun till I had actually tried the musket caps. And if they worked, I'd be watching lot numbers and stocking up.

All theory and supposition on my part because I don't NEED musket caps to do what I want to do with a muzzleloader. Haven't found a chunk or benchrest that will fit in my possibles bag yet, but that doesn't mean other folks shouldn't use them.
 
I too believe they will have a less than positive effect on accuracy.

Gentle primers tend to produce the best accuracy in those guns we can't talk about.

I use #11 magnums, because they dirt cheap at Walmart.

I know a fellow who did some very extensive testing, & he felt that musket caps fared no better than #11s in his test. The test included flash marks on patching, & the amount (inches)that patched cleaning rods were pushed out of the bore when caps were fired on the nipple.
 
Ah, Off-hand shooting. I am thinking of the phenomena where when shooting a magnum vs. a standard caliber, off-hand, you seem to be able to hit more accurately ( for a little while) with the magnum. This has to do with barrel "time" ( ie., the amount of time the bullet is in the barrel) and the shooter's ability to follow through after the trigger releases.

I first confronted this shooting a .38 spl. revolver, and then switching to .357 magnum rounds. The groups fired with the .357 were almost half what the .38 spl. loads were. Yet, the .38s were target loads that did not recoil, while the .357 were full- house loads that rattled everything including the shooter. The same thing occurred on a rifle range when I fired a neighbor's .350 Remington Magnum carbine, off the bench at 100 yds, and put the shot right through the center of the X ring! I was concentrating so much on squeezing that trigger, while focusing my vision on the crosshairs on his scope, that my follow through for shooting slower velocity cartridges, like my .30-06, helped. I dared not fire another shot- so I quit when I was ahead. ( Mother V. didn't raise any stupid sons!)

I suspect the hot caps are giving you the same phenomena when shooting off-hand at plates out at 100 yds, and beyond. The shot gets away faster- only a millisecond, but faster-- so that your follow through works to place the loads fired with the hotter caps more accurately.

I found I could cure myself of this distinction by practicing firing my gun as soon as I had a sight picture, and then concentrate on follow through, counting seconds, and making sure my head stayed on the comb of the stock. I now have gone back to shooting between 4-7 seconds after letting my breath half-way out, when the heart beat disturbs the chest wall muscles the least. I still count seconds through my follow through, always ending with the sights coming back out of recoil to the sight picture I had when I fired.

With handguns, I found that rapid fire tended to get the shakes out of my hands and fingers that I was always fighting when shooting slow- I didn't give my body time to screw up! I also found that follow through was Key to getting the sights back on target rapidly. As my brain learned to just FIRE THE DARN THING and ignore the shakes, my slow fire accuracy improved, too. This works for my BP guns, too. I used long range pistol shooting to train my brain and body to hold my guns properly, to fire in cadence, and to follow through. Any little mistake will send a shot wide at longer ranges. Those same mistakes at even 25 yards are hardly noticeable.

I rarely practice at 25 yards, unless its for a plate match. Even then, I prefer to increase " the degree of difficulty" by shooting at empty shotgun hulls, rather than at the large plates, usually set at 50 feet in the matches.

If you want to improve your BP shooting accuracy, off-hand, try setting out a board at 25 feet with holes drilled into about 2 inches apart, and put stick matches in the holes. Now try to light the matches by hitting the top of the heads. Its very difficult to do, but a lot easier than doing the same " trick " with the match held at 90 degrees to vertical.

When you can light those matches consistently at that distance, move the targets further back until you can do it at 50 feet( a very long distance to even see the matches, using iron sights).

I do not expect you to do this reliably at 50 feet, but the effort will improve you shooting stance, and technique remarkably for Off-hand shooting as a hunter. When you can light the matches with your BP rifle, then go back to 25 feet( or less) and begin working on the same challenge using your BP pistol or revolver.

It may come as a surprise to some riflemen, but learning to shoot a BP revolver or pistol accurately will also help your rifle shooting be more accurate. Better yet, if you have a garage, you can fire off practice rounds using only percussion caps, and wax " bullets" in a revolver in the garage, daily, to keep and sharpen your shooting skills all year round. Many of the best shooters at Friendship shoot 5 shots every morning before they go to work.
 
good advice, Paul. I've always thought the most important component to accuracy was "the NUT behind the buttplate"!

It's also nice to find out that the little plaque on my wall that says "absolute marksman" that I won last month at the Shandaken, NY primitive biathlon was due to my skill and not the musket caps I used on my haken...LOL!
 
I have very large hands and as such prefer musket caps over those tiny little 11's.I am much more of a hunter than a paper puncher and I have found, in my meager experience, that musket caps are more reliable, they also seem to seal better, at least on my guns. All that being said, I have run into problems getting them to line up and some unexpected problems as well. I bought a musket nipple for my shotgun and really didnt pay much attention to it. It had a much bigger hole than the 11 nipple and caused a LOT of blowback.It was downright scary. I have since noticed that almost all musket nipples have larger flash holes, though most not to the extent of that one I had.That thing would cock your hat for you.Oh well, something else to consider.
 
I have large hands also, but I have been using a capping tool by Tedd Cash products to hold the caps and feed them one at a time for me to place on the nipple from the tool, rather than in my two fingers! I can grab that capper, where grabbing those caps one at a time is as difficult for me as it seems to be for you.

I have never been impressed with the quality of any musket nipple I have ever seen for sale. The openings( orifices) are way too large, IMHO. I understand that they are used most often shooting light blank charges, by re-enactors, and far less often to shoot hunting loads. All I had to see just once, was one of those big musket caps sailing off the nipple when the gun fired, and I wanted nothing more to do with them, or to be any where around a shooter when he uses them.

When a standard nipple is used, and standard percussion caps are used, some extraordinarily accurate shooting can be done with those large bore guns, however.

Just use a Chronograph to test the same load with musket vs. standard caps, and see the changes in velocity, and SDV. You don't have to take anyone's word on which is better. You can find it out for yourself. :thumbsup:
 
NSSA members on a regular basis using musket caps and nipples do some extraordinarily accurate shooting. No cappers are allowed in their musket and carbine matches and a puny little #11 will loose you a match every time fumbling with it. The Ampco bronze nipples do not have a huge hole and unless you are shooting a gun with an extraordinarily weak mainspring you will not have blow back problems. A lot of the small rifle sized locks especially on some of the imports suffer from weak mainspring problems.
 
I haven't had a misfire or a plugged nipple since I switched to CCI #11 Magnums. My Ted Cash Capper spits em out like chicklets....No Problemo!!
 
Well, let's see: We agree that the original issued nipples aren't the best- so use an Ampco replacement nipple made of Bronze. I think we can also agree that this is not a NSSA site, so most shooters here are not going to be bound by the NSSA shooting rules. We agree that if YOU ARE GOING TO SHOOT IN AN NSSA competition, you probably are going to be better off using those big musket caps. My big fingers don't handle those small #11 caps( the #10 are even worse!) well either.

But, apparently you don't think we should use a Capper to hold the #11 caps for both ease of handling and for safety? Or at least a Leather capper, that protects the thumb in the event that the cap fires when being pushed down on the nipple?

And, I didn't know that NSSA rules forbade the use of leather cappers with the musket caps.

( For the uninformed, you can make a capper from leather by taking two pieces of thick leather, punching holes near the edges( round cappers are the norm)of one of them, large enough to hold each musket cap, with the open end out. The second piece of leather is left full, and is sewn, or otherwise attached to the first so that it protects the back, or top, of the musket nipples. There are slits from the side of the hole to the edge of the lower piece of leather, so that the musket caps can be pulled off the capper after they have been pressed down on the nipple. The heavy piece of leather on top protects the thumb from burns and most injuries if the cap goes off due to friction igniting any priming compound as the nipple is pushed down on to the nipple. You can make the same kind of capping tool for #11 cap, too.)

The advantage of using the Tedd Cash cappers, is that the capper can hold an entire tin of caps,(100) at one time. As much as I liked my leather capper, its a pain to have to stop and reload it during a match.

I have no doubt that extraordinary shooting can be done with those large bore guns with the right shooter, and the right nipples in the guns. My comments about using standard #11 caps was intended for those members who are using .58 and larger bore barrels on their rifles, often octagon, heavy barrels, for HUNTING. The use of Standard percussion caps for this purpose produces some very fine accuracy in these guns.

Many shooters either don't know about Ampco nipples, or are loathe to use anything other than factory equipment. I don't get it, but that is the way some of these shooters act. I run into this attitude all the time at my gun club with new members. Most have been exposed to some know-it-all who is practicing law without a license! When I explain that switching nipples is Not going to void any warranty that has any value, and that their foreign made gun is Not subject to US laws on Products Liability, they stop making bad decisions based on worse advice.

( Guys: My birthday present to you. A Warranty is nothing more than an invitation to go to court! Sometimes SOME companies establish enviable reputations for honoring their warrantees. A great example is the Thompson Center Company. But there are other gun companies, who offer all kinds of warranties, and who do not honor them as well. If that company is American, you are usually going to find your self in Federal Court unless you live in the same state where the company is located. Federal Court litigation is expensive- all litigation is expensive. For what you pay a lawyer as a retainer, its cheaper to buy 5-10 more guns! That is why you don't hear much about these companies being sued to enforce their warranties.

Case in point: many years ago, I was approached by a local gunsmith, who had sent back a gun to the factory for replacement of a barrel. The original barrel was mis-marked as to caliber, and when the owner used the named ammunition in the gun, he damaged the gun. The company refused to replace the barrel, or action, and instead, cut the handle off the bolt and returned the remains, sans the bolt handle to the gunsmith. Now, this was clearly a factory error that lead to the damage to the rifle. But, at the time, the gun cost about $600.00. The owner just could not afford to sue the gun company to recover his loss, even tho' he had a good claim.The gunsmith showed me the returned " gun " and asked me if the company was wrong to destroy the bolt. I said, "Yes", but that the owner would have to sue. I suggested that a separate count be used to sue for that intentional damage, with a request for punitive damages for this intentional tort. That would certainly get the attention of the Company's attorneys, if not management, and I suspect some kind of settlement would have been made to the plaintiff's satisfaction. Later, I was told that the gun owner talked to his own lawyer, ( who was not a trial lawyer) and decided it was too expensive for him to sue.

Punitive damage awards are based on the defendant's net worth, and what kind of money a jury believes is necessary to stop the company from doing this kind of wrong to other members of the public. Its very likely that a jury would be as angry about what the company did as my gunsmith friend was, and award a substantial amount of money as punitive damages- more than enough to pay the costs of the litigation.

Any time a trial lawyer can get a good intentional wrong doing count into a suit, against a defendant with deep pockets, he is in heaven! He knows that not only can he do justice for his client, but he can be paid, well, too! Its not unusual for lawyers who do not regularly do trial work to overlook an intentional wrong that gives rise to punitive damages. Even lawyers who do lots of civil law suits arising from auto crashes miss intentional tort claims. They just don't come up in that context very often.)
 
My Parker-Hale Musketoon is about 32 years old. I have 3 nipples for it. The one that is on it is the original 32 year old nipple. It appears to be of good quility.

So musket caps are hotter and easier to get hold of and fire off the powder charge with more gusto. Sounds like a winner to me.

P.
 
paulvallandigham said:
Well, let's see: We agree that the original issued nipples aren't the best- so use an Ampco replacement nipple made of Bronze. I think we can also agree that this is not a NSSA site, so most shooters here are not going to be bound by the NSSA shooting rules. We agree that if YOU ARE GOING TO SHOOT IN AN NSSA competition, you probably are going to be better off using those big musket caps. My big fingers don't handle those small #11 caps( the #10 are even worse!) well either.

But, apparently you don't think we should use a Capper to hold the #11 caps for both ease of handling and for safety? Or at least a Leather capper, that protects the thumb in the event that the cap fires when being pushed down on the nipple?

And, I didn't know that NSSA rules forbade the use of leather cappers with the musket caps.

( For the uninformed, you can make a capper from leather by taking two pieces of thick leather, punching holes near the edges( round cappers are the norm)of one of them, large enough to hold each musket cap, with the open end out. The second piece of leather is left full, and is sewn, or otherwise attached to the first so that it protects the back, or top, of the musket nipples. There are slits from the side of the hole to the edge of the lower piece of leather, so that the musket caps can be pulled off the capper after they have been pressed down on the nipple. The heavy piece of leather on top protects the thumb from burns and most injuries if the cap goes off due to friction igniting any priming compound as the nipple is pushed down on to the nipple. You can make the same kind of capping tool for #11 cap, too.)

The advantage of using the Tedd Cash cappers, is that the capper can hold an entire tin of caps,(100) at one time. As much as I liked my leather capper, its a pain to have to stop and reload it during a match.

I have no doubt that extraordinary shooting can be done with those large bore guns with the right shooter, and the right nipples in the guns. My comments about using standard #11 caps was intended for those members who are using .58 and larger bore barrels on their rifles, often octagon, heavy barrels, for HUNTING. The use of Standard percussion caps for this purpose produces some very fine accuracy in these guns.

Many shooters either don't know about Ampco nipples, or are loathe to use anything other than factory equipment. I don't get it, but that is the way some of these shooters act. I run into this attitude all the time at my gun club with new members. Most have been exposed to some know-it-all who is practicing law without a license! When I explain that switching nipples is Not going to void any warranty that has any value, and that their foreign made gun is Not subject to US laws on Products Liability, they stop making bad decisions based on worse advice.

( Guys: My birthday present to you. A Warranty is nothing more than an invitation to go to court! Sometimes SOME companies establish enviable reputations for honoring their warrantees. A great example is the Thompson Center Company. But there are other gun companies, who offer all kinds of warranties, and who do not honor them as well. If that company is American, you are usually going to find your self in Federal Court unless you live in the same state where the company is located. Federal Court litigation is expensive- all litigation is expensive. For what you pay a lawyer as a retainer, its cheaper to buy 5-10 more guns! That is why you don't hear much about these companies being sued to enforce their warranties.

Case in point: many years ago, I was approached by a local gunsmith, who had sent back a gun to the factory for replacement of a barrel. The original barrel was mis-marked as to caliber, and when the owner used the named ammunition in the gun, he damaged the gun. The company refused to replace the barrel, or action, and instead, cut the handle off the bolt and returned the remains, sans the bolt handle to the gunsmith. Now, this was clearly a factory error that lead to the damage to the rifle. But, at the time, the gun cost about $600.00. The owner just could not afford to sue the gun company to recover his loss, even tho' he had a good claim.The gunsmith showed me the returned " gun " and asked me if the company was wrong to destroy the bolt. I said, "Yes", but that the owner would have to sue. I suggested that a separate count be used to sue for that intentional damage, with a request for punitive damages for this intentional tort. That would certainly get the attention of the Company's attorneys, if not management, and I suspect some kind of settlement would have been made to the plaintiff's satisfaction. Later, I was told that the gun owner talked to his own lawyer, ( who was not a trial lawyer) and decided it was too expensive for him to sue.

Punitive damage awards are based on the defendant's net worth, and what kind of money a jury believes is necessary to stop the company from doing this kind of wrong to other members of the public. Its very likely that a jury would be as angry about what the company did as my gunsmith friend was, and award a substantial amount of money as punitive damages- more than enough to pay the costs of the litigation.

Any time a trial lawyer can get a good intentional wrong doing count into a suit, against a defendant with deep pockets, he is in heaven! He knows that not only can he do justice for his client, but he can be paid, well, too! Its not unusual for lawyers who do not regularly do trial work to overlook an intentional wrong that gives rise to punitive damages. Even lawyers who do lots of civil law suits arising from auto crashes miss intentional tort claims. They just don't come up in that context very often.)

I didn't say anything about you or anyone else using a capper; do as you wish and true this is not an NSSA site but there are people here that do shoot in the NSSA and they fall within the time-frame that is specified by the forum rules. I also didn't say that fine accuracy was not achievable with #11 caps. I was simply trying to point out that a segment of the members of this forum can and do get fine accuracy with musket caps and I also pointed out a reason why the sporting rifles can fail to do the same thing an arm designed for the larger musket cap does (i.e weak mainsprings that can and do allow excessive blow-back). Individual matches in the NSSA look a lot like an NMLRA match in that the targets are paper and are fired offhand at 50 and 100 yards. Sorry, I didn't mean to ruffle your feathers. :v
 
poordevil said:
My Parker-Hale Musketoon is about 32 years old. I have 3 nipples for it. The one that is on it is the original 32 year old nipple. It appears to be of good quility.

So musket caps are hotter and easier to get hold of and fire off the powder charge with more gusto. Sounds like a winner to me.

P.

My English Parker-Hale is still on its original nipple as is my 1863 second model Springfield and my much used 1842 Springfield musket. I think one reason for short nipple life is dry firing by folks who just don't know any better. I bought spare nipples for all my military percussion guns, and they are still in their blister packs. The Parker-Hale is one of the first ones made and has a few thousand rounds through it and the '63 is even older. Love those big old musket caps!
 
Parker-Hale must build better nipples than the Italians. I shot out the original nipples in my Enfield and Murray carbine in short order. I tried S/S nipples and they were a little beter but would still burn out. The Ampco nipples fixed the burn out problem. Both of them are approaching 10 years in the guns and are almost in as good condition as they were when new.
 
I found the comments of interest because I just put a Spitfire Musket Nipple on my T/C Hawkin. I'm shooting a .40 cal GM barrel 38" long with 40 grains of FFFg Goex. Both nipples were Spitfire and both caps were RWS. At 25 yards the point of impact was almost the same. The musket cap would push the hammer back to half cock. Recommendations, try same test at 50 & 100 yds. There seems to a louder bang with the musket cap. Was going to try on my underhammer but I don't think it would be good for the spring.
 

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