1137 vs 12L14 for muzzleloader barrels

[French Colonial]

How many of you make your own barrels?

For 99.9% of people on this forum purchasing guns, barrel steel is whatever Pedersoli, TC, CVA, Chambers, Kibler, etc. etc. made them out of and matters not.

However, it is cold outside, what steel should frizzens be made of

 

[rickpa]

As I recall the Douglas barrel that let go was seriously overloaded or otherwise compromised. Douglas chose to quit making M/L barrels rather than expose themselves to further litigation by people trying to magnumize a black powder firearm.

 

[Blackpowder8bore]

Might as well go center fire. Not my cup of tea. Round ball and black powder is what I consider when I comment here. I forget that times have changed. It would help to specify intended use, I guess.

Intended use is a 12 bore muzzleloading rifle. 250grs powder, 6-700gr conicals just like they used in Africa in the 1800s.

I was given a choice in 12l14 and 4140 I picked 4140 for corrosion resistance and proof strength.

 

[Blackpowder8bore]

I believe it is why Douglas quit making muzzleloader barrels.

That makes sense

 

[Blackpowder8bore]

You state it is your choice, then why would you go with a weaker steel? Choose the steel that has better strength.

I have a choice and I choose to pick barrels that are not made of 12L14 steel, if I have a choice. I might have a 12L14 barrel in a ML, I am not sure. I do know that for those that I have a choice, they are not 12L14. They are from barrel makers that used stronger steel then 12L14.

I have a few old guns and yes I shoot them. That is my choice. To shoot them or not shoot them. I dont have a choice of what they made their barrels from in 1850.

Fleener

I agree.that is what I have done. For more money I chose the better steel, 4140.

 

[mkabe]

Don't worry so much about pressure. Any steel used to make barrels ought to hold up to any pressure level you would care to load up to, otherwise it isn't an appropriate material for barrels. Wear resistance, machinability and resistance to rust are much more important factors than what pressure level the barrel will hold up to.

I would ask your barrel maker what he would recommend, then look at the spec sheets for each steel, solicit other opinions (which you have done), think about it for a few days and THEN make your decision.

In the end, you will be happy with either one and most people (myself included.... and I am a blacksmith) have no idea what kind of steel their guns are made of. Honestly, I would pay serious coin to have a blued stainless barrel for all of my guns. So far as I am aware though, nobody makes such a beast. This is not surprising as stainless steels gall and are notoriously difficult to machine accurately... also, they are not especially traditional, which is important to most on this forum.

I have TC Gray Hawk .50 cal. that is stainless and I love it for hunting. Especially when I plan to carry it all day in the hot humid Kansas early muzzleloader season. Though stainless can certainly rust it gives me more time before cleaning and I don’t worry about it much.
I also have a TC Seneca .36 cal., an early one with little writing on the barrel, which is much more traditional. It’s my pet.

 

[Dale Allen Raby]

I have TC Gray Hawk .50 cal. that is stainless and I love it for hunting. Especially when I plan to carry it all day in the hot humid Kansas early muzzleloader season. Though stainless can certainly rust it gives me more time before cleaning and I don’t worry about it much.
I also have a TC Seneca .36 cal., an early one with little writing on the barrel, which is much more traditional. It’s my pet.

I too have a pet Seneca .36.

 

[Comfortably_Numb]

I have made nearly 400 flintlock guns with 12L14. No problems. I have shot antique flint lock SXS shotguns with damascus barrels. No problems. I have shot antique cartridge rifles with iron barrels with smokeless and black powder. No problems.
I believe you're a bunch of Nervous Nellies.

I did however, blow a Douglas barrel up back in the 80's. My loading error, no fault of the barrel steel.

 

[longcruise]

Intended use is a 12 bore muzzleloading rifle. 250grs powder, 6-700gr conicals just like they used in Africa in the 1800s.

I was given a choice in 12l14 and 4140 I picked 4140 for corrosion resistance and proof strength.

A good choice for sure but in the same post you acknowledge the use of the same loads in barrels of inferior metal made in the 1800 period.

NOT saying you should do the same.

 

[Billy Boy]

Looking for info about which steel is better for muzzleloader rifle barrels. There are barrel companies that use both. The company I'm using asked me what kind of steel I wanted for my barrel and i was caught off guard. It's my choice. The builder is Not a steel expert he's a muzzleloader builder so it's my choice.

Anyone who knows which one withstands more pressure please leave a reply.i couldn't find an answer by searching.

Thanks for your help


*** Update***
I was given the choice by the barrel maker as 12l14 or 4140 only so I picked 4140!! Can't go wrong now.

One off it doesn’t make a big diff, the 12L14 machines easier, kinder to tooling, 4140 is smokeless strong, overkill, takes your pick…

 

[chorizo]

For point of reference: Spanish and Italian BP guns are proofed to 700kp/cm2 (just short of 10,000 psi 9954psi).

 

[Philip Lebow]

Well gents, Don't overload your ML barrel. Softer steels machine more easily and generally give better accuracy. It's why they get used.
Chrome-moly makes a great barrel, but it's tougher to machine in the higher grades, leaving a rough interior unless hand lapped.
Flaws in steel are usually the reason for failures, and "Ah jus' put a lil Bullseye under the black for gud fire!" accounts for some.
And airspace under the ball/bullet, etc.
More important, is if the steel has been inspected for flaws. For awhile in the 2000's there were runs of bad barrels due to bad steel, mostly in centerfire barrels, from the best makers.
2 cents.
P

 

[64Springer]

For point of reference: Spanish and Italian BP guns are proofed to 700kp/cm2 (just short of 10,000 psi 9954psi).

Or 1/5 the PSI of many breech loading high powered Un-Mens.

 

[chorizo]

Or 1/5 the PSI of many breech loading high powered Un-Mens.

2500psi less that a 12ga shotgun 2 3/4" proof load

 

[longcruise]

What would be the PSI in a 50 cal loaded with a 370 maxi over 100 grains of 3f?

 

[Blackpowder8bore]

This is not a debate, its a fact about the quality of steel available
The following are properties for some of the common barrel steel used.
12L14
Tensile strength 78,300 PSI, Yield strength 60,200 PSI

1137
Tensile strength 108,000 PSI, Yield strength 76,100 PSI

1144
Tensile strength 108,000 PSI, Yield strength 89,900 PSI

4140
Tensile strength 148,000 PSI, Yield strength 95,000 PSI

Thanks for this...I chose 4140

 

[Blackpowder8bore]

What would be the PSI in a 50 cal loaded with a 370 maxi over 100 grains of 3f?

I'm guessing over 15000 I'd think.im def no expert but I'm pretty sure it's over 15k. Maybe up to 25000..

 

[Blackpowder8bore]

I believe it is why Douglas quit making muzzleloader barrels.

Thats a shame..i Love Douglas centerfire barrels

 

[bud in pa]

Can anybody please explain why if 12L14 steel is strong enough to contain black powder pressure, then why do barrel manufactures make smoothbore barrel so thick and heavy? If our ancestors could use forge welded and Damascus smoothbore barrels that have lasted for over 100 years, what is the worry about using modern steel?

 

[centershot]

Can anybody please explain why if 12L14 steel is strong enough to contain black powder pressure, then why do barrel manufactures make smoothbore barrel so thick and heavy? If our ancestors could use forge welded and Damascus smoothbore barrels that have lasted for over 100 years, what is the worry about using modern steel?

Lawyers.