12 ga. is too much!

[mopar66701]

being that i am somewhat new to muzzleloading and have nobody to call on i am going to post my question here and see what everyone has to say.
i hunt rabbits with beagles. i got the idea that i would like to use a muzzleloading sxs shotgun and purchased a 12ga navy arms/pedrisolli early last summer. fast forward to the hunting season. now i know a 12 ga is more than enough for rabbits. i usually use a .410 but that 12ga. was all i could find in a blackpowder. so i go out today with my smokethrower and fire off 3 shots and kill two cottontails. it was a good hunt overall with good weather and decent houndwork.
but man did that thing just blow the rabbits away! when the smoke cleared it was fluff and a pile of what was a rabbit. tore the meat up quite a bit.
my load was 1 1/8 oz. x 1 1/8 oz. powder/shot.
like i said i know a 12ga is overkill on the rabbits but is there an acceptable amount to reduce the loads in muzzleloading shotguns to help prevent the damage? if anyone has any experience or ideas to share with me i would appreciate it. sorry for the long winded post.

 

[Roy]

what size shot were you using?

 

[KyFlintlock]

Try 7 1/2 shot and 1oz.

good luck
Wess

 

[mopar66701]

i was using 7 1/2 shot. sorry for the omission of such important information. is it advisable to use very much less shot than powder? like i said i am pretty new to the game. i thought the powder and shot charges should be equal. can the shot be reduced without the powder or would that blow the pattern? or should they both be reduced? how much would be too much?

 

[Rebel]

Does that shotgun have the screw in chokes? If so, what chokes were you using? You might want to try Imp cylinder if they are screw in. And try 70 gr of powder and 1 1/8 oz of shot. You will get a little less velocity with that load. You are using either 2f BP or equivilent aren't you, and not 3f?

 

[Roy]

I would try less powder than shot and maybe use 1 oz or less of #5's. I'm thinking that the 5's will be more open (less individual shot) than the 7 1/2's. Check and see how it patterns on some cardboard never hurts.

 

[Ron LaClair]

DON'T shoot so quick....let em get out a ways. :nono:

 

[biliff]

It's not the gauge that kills (or overkills) its the pattern. The great thing about muzzleloading shotguns is the ability to easily manipulate the pattern.

You can pretty easily go down to 20 or 28 gauge performance by dropping the shot charge to 7/8 or 3/4 oz. This will cut down on the shot in the pattern. Going to a larger shot size as was suggested in an earlier post will do the same thing.

If you have a gun that is choked you can experiment with powder charges/wad columns that will open the pattern up somewhat (increasing the powder charge tends to open patterns).

All this is theoretical and guess work, though, if you don't actually pattern your loads on paper. Butcher paper works great for this kind of thing. Figure out about how far out you're busting bunnies and pattern for that range. Try and find a shot/powder/wad/choke combination that assures a clean kill without tearing the critter up. Its the shotgun equivalent of working up an accurrate load for a rifle.

 

[mopar66701]

thank you all for your input so far. seems i left out quite a bit of information that most of you are interested in. the gun has no screw in chokes. honestly i have no idea what the choke is. probably ic i would guess. using ffg/777 for powder with an overpowder card,cushion wad, winchester AA red plastic wads, shot, and a shot card on top. i wasnt able to obtain anything larger than 71/2 shot. i wanted to get 6 at least but the closest place left to get shooting supplies is 40 miles away and thats all they had. (thanks again wal-mart) so maybe if i use 1oz or less of shot and a slightly smaller charge of powder with everything else the same it may work? what about no plastic shot cup? does that do any good or harm? as far as i know it mostly protects the barrels from leading and holds the shot for a denser pattern? hopefully now i have given the whole picture of what i have. sorry for omitting so many pieces of information. i appreciate the input. i hope to get to experiment with some of these ideas soon after christmas.

 

[biliff]

Definately dump the plastic wads, they tend to tighten patterns.
If you drop down to 1 oz of shot, don't lower the powder charge as that tends to tighten patterns as well.
Notice, I keep saying "tends to". Make a change and pattern your gun. If you don't get what you want, make another change and pattern again. Eventually, you get where you want to be. When you get there, WRITE DOWN THE EXACT LOAD or you will be doing it all over again next bunny season.

 

[paulvallandigham]

Go to the links sections here under member services, on the top of the table of contents. There are many suppliers that will ship you any of the shot you want. Use the 7 1/2 size shot to do your load development, because you have it and its cheap. And, any dealer can order you shot along with his ordinary order, so talk to the manager wherever you shop and ask him to order what you want. You may have to pay him up front, but you will get the shot size you need. I buy a bag of #5 shot every few years, and use it almost exclusively for hunting loads. I practice with #8 shot, because I found it patterns about the same as the larger shot in my guns. Your gun may be different. I use 7 1/2 shot when its really windy out, or blowing wind in gusts. Otherwise, #8 shot breaks all the targets they can throw out of a traphouse. It also works fine for hunting dove, with my 12 ga. My load is 2 3/4 drams( approx. 75 grains ) of FFg BLACK POWDER, and 1 1/8 oz. of shot. For hunting, I load 2 3/6 drams of powder, 2Fg, and 1 1/4 oz. of #5 shot. The larger shot noticeably kncoks the birds out of the air well out to 30 yds, which is a long shot with a muzzle loading shotgun with no choke. I have killed birds out to 35 yds, with my gun.

Don't be looking for fast. Fast will blow the patterns. If you are not going to shoot equal parts powder and shot, then reduce the powder. You can find good loading information to help you sort out all the work in load development in Bob Spenser's site,[url] http://members.aye.net/~bspen/index.html[/url]

Read the article by the late, great master of shotguns, V.M. Starr, and take notes not only on the loads for 12, but for 16, 20, and 28 ga. And look at what he recommends for the 10 gauge. The nice thinga about black powder shotguns is you can cook up your own load, on the spot, when the weather, or situation changes, within reasonable limits.

I do not use the plastic shot cups. They will help tighten your patterns, and keep more shot in the kill zone, just because they will protect the outer shot from rubbing against the sides of the barrel and getting flats on them. The flats cause the shot to slow down quickly, and drop out of the pattern. If you are shooting at something beyond 20 yds. there is a good chance that none of the outer layers of shot will make it to the target at all. Plastic shotcups are not allowed in sanctioned NMLRA shotgun events, so keep that in mind. If you go to a range for a shoot, and find you can't use the stuff you have to load the gun, and don't know what to use instead, you could be forecloed from shooting at all.

You can order Black Powder from the suppliers in the links in small quantities. 4-5 lb. minimum orders. The price is substantially less than you are paying for Triple 77, and you will find it works better for you in your shotgun. Delivery is usually witin a couple of days. If you practice with that shotgun much at all, you will go through a pound of powder fairly quickly. Just do the math. If you throw 75 grains of powder, you will get less than 100 shots out of one pound of powder ( 7000 Grains) That is not a lot of shotgun shooting.

Good shooting. Paul

 

[ffffg]

lets see,, stop using the red plastic wads for the first thing, they will be increasing your choke in this case too much.. you could go back to it if you want more choke for other critters.. plastic wads will also give you some problems with continued shooting as fouling builds up... when you stop using the cups you should use some kind of lube between the nitro card and the fiber wad..i use tc lube and it will suffice for this load for now.. that will help this problem quite a bit.. it sounds like your using about a 80/80 load. thats 80 grains powder, 80 grains shot equivelent shot in the measure.. you can use 70/70 or 60/60, 50 grains powder /50 grains equivelent shot in the measure, and still get results at similar velocities, but with less shot and less damage to the rabbit.. i can shoot clays at short range with 50/50 in my 12 gauge with full choke with little problem.. you will be risking tipping the load letting gas escape by the nitro card in some guns, but not allways.... tho the red wads would stop this tipping but with less than the perscribed amount of shot for the red wad youl have trouble seating the over shot card using less shot than the cup is designed for.. this can damage the petal and screw up the pattern (maybe?dont know but will be tough to get the over shot card right..).. when the shot gets too shallow for the gauge as with 60/60 or less it can let the powder blow by becouse it can tip easily..you should be able to stop this by adding more fiber wads, try 1 1/2 or two fiber wads if your getting tipping.. this usually will show up as blown patterns on the pattern board.. so its off to the pattern board to see what your original load with red wad looks like, what the reduced loads look like to get the density you need.. one problem is tho, you should start with the 50/50 and work up at the pattern board becouse if you reduce loads during the days shoot you will have to pass thru the crud ring with the nitro card thus possibly constricting it and this can caouse problems with blowby also..it comes down to the number of shots youve fired and your humidity.. its very dry here and reducing powder can cause a problem.. i used to argue with guys from florida quite abit in years past and finally figured out they live in a wet warm climant couasing different problems/sucesses than in my cold dry climate.. so get some brown shipping paper, try 50/50, 60/60,70/70, 80,80 then your load your using now.. then use the best one for your circumstances and watch for blown patterns etc.. when you find the one you like, shoot quite a few patterns with some clays inbetween, to make sure your not getting an occational problem. a good load is a good load, thirty rounds strait thru.. i usually pattern the 1st, 5th, 10th 20th round.. with these looking similar you should be fine.. 2fg may tend to tip less than faster burning powders, im not sure about 777 and its burning speed and tipping problems as i havnt used it.... dave..

 

[Stumpkiller]

DON'T shoot so quick....let em get out a ways. :nono:

There you go. My 12 ga is straight cylinder bore and I have to "tone down" the powder to hold any pattern at all. Remember the old shotgunner's rhyme:

"Less powder, more lead, shoots far, tight spread.
More powder, less lead, up close, wide spread".

I don't hunt with dog(s) so my shots are farther out on grouse and closer in on bunnies. I have to remember to let the rabbits track a bit but snap shoot the birds. I also use #6 shot in my m/l; and wish I could find #5 locally for bunnies.

 

[Roy]

Sometime during the year TOTW usually will have free shipping for X amount spent, Great time to pick up the shot that you do not have. :thumbsup:

 

[Runner]

More powder, less pattern density. More lead, better pattern density. The break point is where you drop below the speed needed for your purpose. In my gun, 3-4 loads work from 50-70 to 90-120. That keeps the speed up enough to handle my needs and gives me very tight patterns. 1-1 loads are just the beginner loads that the manufacturers recommend. If you dump the wad, 1-1 loads should give you what you want pretty close.
I load 3-4 powder to shot using RS right now. A 6mm nitro card over the powder and a thin over shot card. A 50 70 load of fives or sixes should handle most of what you need.

 

[mopar66701]

thank you to everyone for your response to my questions. soon i will go out and see how they work in my gun. thanks again and merry christmas

 

[mopar66701]

ok. this thread is old and maybe nobody remembers it but i finally got a day that wasnt storming or bitter cold or super windy. i got to try some different combinations and pattern my 12ga sxs. after christmas i had my wife buy a bunch of wrapping paper cheap to use for this. i got some #4 shot and did most of the work at 16 yrds initially. with 80 over 80 and no plastic cup with 1/2 fiber wad the patern was big and open with a donut hole. deffinately not good. 70 gr powder and 80 shot with 1/2" fiber wad still blows the pattern with a donut hole in it. going to half of a fiber wad closes the donut hole and gives a little more pattern with less holes and gaps. with 60 gr powder and 80 shot and half a fiber wad it does about what i want. then i backed up to about 25 yrds and it still looked good. both barrels reacted the same except the p.o.i. is a little low and left on the right barrel. then i set two med. cans out there at 25 yrds and pelted each of them with one barrell each. penetrated both sides of the can with enough shot that i wouldnt have destroyed my rabbit and he dang sure wouldnt have lived either! i think i got it guys. now...anybody got any suggestions to keep this thing from kicking me in the face each time i pull the trigger. this thing punishes my cheek bone somethin fierce!

 

[paulvallandigham]

What are the Length of pull( LOP) and drop at comb and heel? I will explain, incase you have no idea what I am talking about?!

Length of pull is measure from the middle of the trigger- if you have two triggers then from the furthest forward trigger - to the center of the buttplate. My first thought is you may have too short a LOP. Are you hitting your knuckle into your cheek, or is it really the stock that is hitting you?

Height at comb and height at heel are measure by taking a yardstick. laying down the barrel(s) of the gun, and extending the straightedge back over the buttstock of the shotgun. Then use a separate ruler to measure the distance to the straightedge( bottom edge)< from the middle of the comb of the stock, where you cheek is suppose to rest. Measure the drop at heel by measuring from the bottom edge of the yardstick to the heel, or top of the buttplate. A shotgun should be held close to the center of your body, in the pocket created by raising your arm up and extending your elbow out so that the upper arm is even with the shoulder. Put the butt of the gun in that pocket when you mount the gun to your face. If the stock is too straight- usually it is if the drop at heel is less then 2 5/8 inches, and the drop at comb is less than 2 inches- it usually will reach up and smack you in the mouth every time the gun is fired. Depending on how thin, or full you face is, you can also be kicked in the face if there is no cast off built into the stock. Either way, you need to find someone who can make a better fitting stock for you to cure the problem.

Most people either have, or have a friend who owns a Winchester Model 94 lever action rifle. I bought one many years that was beating my face raw! The stock was way too short. I took it to a gunsmith to have a recoil pad put on it, and he looked at the gun when I mounted it, then put the pad between the gun and my shoulder, then added two pieces of 1/4" thick plastic to get the stock to fit me. He went ahead ahd stocked the gun with the extensions and the pad. It still fits me like a glove, and every guy I have known who is taller than 6 feet and has shot that rifle tells me its the sweetest shooting .30-30 they have ever shot.

So, the stock does matter, and on a shotgun, it matters a lot. Get a good fit. If you have another gun that you shoot well, and does not kick you, take measurements off that stock, and give them to your gunsmith or stockmaker to use in determinine what will help you out with that gun.

I helped fit a woman shooter whose shotgun was bruising her chest in recoil, and kicking her hard enough to leave bruises on her cheek. She was shooting a Winchester 20 ga. Semi-auto. I sent her to a man who did shotgun stock work, and knew his business, and he not only shortened the length of pull dramatically, but also gave her more down pitch on the gun to deal with a woman's natural barrel chested shape. No more bruises, and the gun points the game birds when it touches her shoulders. She almost never missed a live bird anymore, and has fallen in love with a shotgun she had grown to hate. She has loaned that gun to several woman so they could see what a little change in stock work can do for them. I think her LOP is now something like 12 3/4" .l

BTW, pitch is determined by resting the gun on a flat surface against a vertical line, like a wall and floor. measure the distance from the flat wall to the front sight of the shotgun, and that is your pitch. Mostly its " down pitch", because the barrel is away from the wall at the front sight. However, some guns are made with Up-pitch, where the heel of the gun has to stand away from the wall to get the muzzle to rest on the wall, while the buttplate rests completely on the floor. This later situation is so rare, I have only seen one gun made that way in more than 50 years of looking. It was for a handicapped shooter who was shooting from a wheelchair, and leaned over the top of his gun. He didn't seem to mind the bruises he got on his cheek.

 

[roundball]

At one time I had a SxS .12ga Navy Arms that did the same thing mainly because it was way too light.

I replaced the ramrod with a 3/8" solid stainless rod to get a lot more weight out front, and drilled out a deep 1" diameter hole in the butt stock and filled it with #9 shot...overall added about 3 pounds to it's weight and it helped a lot.

 

[mopar66701]

mine is a navy arms also. it has a 3/8 stainless rod already in it. im not sure about the overall weight but it seems plenty heavy. more would probably stop some of the recoil but mostly it is barrel rise i think that is the problem.
the lop is good for me. it is something about the other measurements that arent so good. i had a model 94 and neither it or any other firearm i have ever used has beat me like this one. i cant say for sure if any of my other shotguns fit me correctly..probably dont. im 6'3" and have somewhat long neck and thin face so the manufacturers at large didnt design their stocks around my dimensions.
one funny thing i just thought of...i havent noticed this face bashing occuring when im hunting with it and fire at game. its been noticed mostly when i pattern.
thanks for the responses. i appreciate the input!