12 Ga Shotgun Help

[Pigman]

I have recently acquired a 12 ga SXS Pedersoli.

I have a few questions.

Can anyone give me loading information? I need Ideas on where to start.

Is there any way to tell if it is choked or not?

The sight has a brass bead 1/2 way down the barrel and in the front a red plastic bubble in a small metal loop. Is there an easy way to have a more traditional front sight?

Thanks,
Foster From Flint

 

[Canerod]

Welcome to the addiction of double guns, it's only going to get worse. In my Pedersoli, I use equal measure loads, i.e. if I set the shot measure to 1 1/8oz for shot, I use the same measure to throw an equal volume of powder. Pedersoli's website shows a max charge of 100gr, I'm assuming 2Fg, given the bore diameter.

I only have a single brass bead at the muzzle of mine, but I think the front sight would be threaded. If so, a plain front bead could be substituted easily. The schematic on the website doesn't show whether the bead is threaded or not.

As for choke, a plain stamped sheetmetal choke/bore gauge is a good thing to have. They really come in handy at gun shows and the like. If you have a micrometer, you can measure the ID of each muzzle and get an idea of the amount of choke. But the bottom line is how it shoots, so get some supplies and go burn some powder.

Take care,

Canerod

 

[DanChamberlain]

Uncle

The beauty is, you tailor your load to the game you're hunting...or the game you're playing.

If I'm hunting squirrel and rabbit and quail, I like #6 shot and 75 grains of ffg or 70 grains of fffg. I also pour my shot to equal the volume of my powder selection, but you don't have to. You can add more shot or decrease the shot charge depending on your performance.

For crow I up the powder to 80 grains and a similar amount of shot.

Think of it as a reloading bench.

There are those who load with a classic column, powder, over the powder card, cushion wad, shot charge and over the shot card. It works pretty well. The wads are easily gotten at Circle Fly.

You can adjust the width of the cusion wad for performance.

I no longer use an over the powder card. I just toss two thin overshot cards down the bore and a quarter inch cusion wad because they can easily be loaded past a full choke by bending them a bit when inserting. I follow it up with another over the shot card. This way, I'm only carrying two different components, rather than an additional card.

I cut my fiber cushion wads when they're dry to one quarter inch. Then I soak them in melted bore butter and let them cool. This way I can keep my fouling soft with real black powder.

If I'm using 777, I shoot a dry cushion wad when hunting.

Test your loads on a large paper sheet to see if you are getting good density, or large holes in your pattern. Play around until you get the density you like.

You can also adjust the elevation or windage with some filing...but I can't advise you on this. Someone else here may have the answer for you.

Good luck.

Dan

 

[roundball]

I have recently acquired a 12 ga SXS Pedersoli.
I have a few questions.
Can anyone give me loading information? I need ideas on where to start.
Is there any way to tell if it is choked or not?
The sight has a brass bead 1/2 way down the barrel and in the front a red plastic bubble in a small metal loop. Is there an easy way to have a more traditional front sight?
Thanks,
Foster From Flint

Don't forget the Pedersoli Website...

 

[paulvallandigham]

Normally, on the bottom of the barrel, back under the forestock and close to the breechplugs, you will find stampings that indicate bore diameters, and choke. These often are in millimeters. Using Calipers to measure the inside diameter of each muzzle is the fastest way, unless you have a simple bore gauge, a triangular shaped piece of sheet metal, with markings on its sides to indicate what size gauge and then what size choke you have in a given gun, from .410 to 10 gauge.

A Cylinder bore 12 gauge is nominally .729" in diameter. Expect a Modified choke to be about .015", and full choke to be closer to .030". Improved Cylinder will be about .010" of constriction.


As to loads, the advice is correct. This like carrying around a reloading press and components along with the gun. Instead of reloading shotgun hulls, everything goes down the barrel, one round at a time.

you can load the gun as light as you want, to duplicate loads from the 28 gauge, or stoke it up to 10 gauge levels, fairly safely using FFg Black Powder. I will not speak to using other powders in that gun.

My 12 gauge likes 2 3/4 drams of FFg powder( 76 grains) and 1 1/8- 1 1/4 oz. of shot. I have been loading the traditional 1/8" thick OP wad, then a 1`/2" thick cushion wad, the shot, then one OS card( about .010" thick). The cushion wad is too heavy if soaked in moose juice, so I began splitting a cushion wad in half and putting one each in the two barrels, after pressing out the liquid. That helped get rid of the following wads, and the donut hole patterns.

Then, Iron Jim Rackham, from New York, wrote a post here where he only uses OS cards for all his loading, using 4 os cards in stead of the OP wad and cusion wad, and then 2 os cards on top of the shot. He recommended using an awl to punch an off-center hole in the cards, and then align the cards as you load them so that the holes DON'T line up with the one next to them. He followed that advice with some pictures of his before and after patterns, show nice, even, hole free patterns using this method. He puts a round ball of waxy lube between his 3rd and 4th cards behind the shot.

I tried his method, but didn't find a good consistent wax/oil mix for my lube. So, instead, I used a greased cleaning patch to lube the barrel as I seated the final 2 OS cards on the shot. It was speedy, let me carry a minimum of "stuff", and I got very nice patterns. I was a little surprised to see my pellet count increase, and leading in the barrel cease when I used this new method.

I am used to having a second range rod set up with a bore brush, and lead solvent on hand to use to get the lead out of the bore of the shotgun, but they are not needed if I lube the bore IN FRONT OF the shot.

I do run a cleaning patch down after each shot, slightly dampened on my tongue, and that seems to be enough to clean the crud out of the back of the barrel so that the gun remains "one shot dirty".

The nicest part of using only OS cards is that they are thin enough, but strong enough, that you can bend them to get them past the choke in your barrel, then turn them, while not destroying the edges.

I am using 2 3/4 dram FFg powder and 1 1/4 oz. of #5 shot for hunting pheasants. I use the same powder charge and 1 1/8" of of #8 shot for dove, quail, and partridge. The #5 shot works well for rabbits, and for squirrels, altho any shot from #8 to #4 will work for both of them. I find that #5 shot are heavy enough to completely penetrate a pheasant, but if a pellet doesn't, its large enough to locate easily when cleaning the birds, or preparing them for cooking. The smaller pellets can be a real test of your patience, and sense of touch some times. I bought some nickel plated #5 shot to use, and I expect them to penetrate even better. Given a choice( ie. knowing that I am only going to shoot rabbits, or only squirrels), I will use them for squirrels, and rabbits, too.

I try to keep my MV down below 1100 fps. That seems to help the patterns stay round and tight. Air is not only dragging on the pellets as they fly through the air, but its also trying to push them away from each other. The faster the MV, the faster the pellets spread out. With choke, that process is delayed, which is why choke is desireable, but it can't stop the process. It delays it just long enough at the short ranges we shoot shotguns to allow tighter patterns at 30-40 yds. With my cylinder bore gun, I consider 25 yards to be a " long " shot. But, I have killed pheasants out to 33 yds with the gun.

 

[Britsmoothy]

My Pedersoli says 89grns max of powder and 1 1/4oz load but I have loaded more!
I tend to load 7/8 the volume of powder to the shot volume so if I set the scales to weigh 1 1/4 oz of shot I them make a measure to just contain that shot. Then using the same measure fill it with powder (you could shoot it as that if you wished) and then weigh it. Then I would reduce that weight by 1/8 and make a new measure for the powder.
With those measures you can fill philes or make a spout on a flask etc.
The thing to do is experiment alot, shot shell hulls make lots of easy measures to find what you and the gun like most before you settle down.
The bore of these european made barrels tend to run european sizing as in .719 for a 12g not .729.
Any less than that and you have some choke.

Brit.

 

[ohio ramrod]

I hbave had one since the early 70's. Mine is aproximately modified right , full left. I use 1 &1/8 ounce of shot and 75 grain FFg. I use a paper cartridge of wax paper for powder, one felt wad , and a newspaper rolled shot cartridge. I find that a 5/8 doll rod makes a nice sized mandlel to roll the cartridges and then fold them and tie with a light string. I once tried to save time by sealing the cartridges with masking tape-bad idea. The masking tape would stick to the bore sides and made loading so hard I had to rip open the cartridges and thow away the paper.

 

[Pigman]

Normally, on the bottom of the barrel, back under the forestock and close to the breechplugs, you will find stampings that indicate bore diameters, and choke. These often are in millimeters. Using Calipers to measure the inside diameter of each muzzle is the fastest way, unless you have a simple bore gauge, a triangular shaped piece of sheet metal, with markings on its sides to indicate what size gauge and then what size choke you have in a given gun, from .410 to 10 gauge.

On my Gun one barrel has KG350 and then on both it has 18.4. What would that indicate

 

[paulvallandigham]

The 18.4 is most likely the bore diameter, as it converts to .7244" caliber. While a small case "kg" is usually used to refer to "Kilograms", I don't know what the Upper Case "KG350" means. You might call Pedersoli to find these questions out. I believe they have an "800" number you can call. Google the name, or check the links section at the top of the index page to this forum for a link to Pedersoli. On barrels that are choked at the factory, there is usually an indicator along side the bore diameter, in millimeters, that indicates IC, or M, or F, for Improved Cylinder, Modified, and Full chokes respectively. European guns made before WWII, often have numerical indications of the choke for each barrel, on the individual barrels. Because Pedersoli marketed( may still?) DB shotguns with cylinder bores, You may have bought one of these guns. Today, most of what I see being sold by Dixie, or Cabelas have either screw in chokes, or are choked at the factory.

Always measure the barrels yourself, whether you buy a shotgun or a rifle. Don't trust to what someone, who may not even speak English, or be literate in their own native language, stamps or writes on the side of a barrel.

I learned that lesson the hard way. I took delivery of a .20 ga. fowler made by a local builder. He had built a couple of these, and bought barrels from the same supplier that sold him the barrel used on my gun. He had one of the barrels on his own gun. It was 20 gauge, so even he didn't think to check. Well, when we tried to fire PRB and didn't get the sound, or the POI we were expecting, and then checked the velocity with a chronograph and came up more than 200 fps short, we got out the calipers and found my barrel is closer to being a 19 gauge, ( larger diameter) than to the smaller 20 gauge. I had to order new wads, and OS cards to get it to shoot right. It was not a problem, as Circle Fly sells wads in all gauge sizes, but it was a shock, and an inconvenience. :thumbsup:

 

[ric]

for an interesting article on the muzzle loading shotgun , search vm starr. good read from a past time that still applies now.

 

[paulvallandigham]

Is that the article that appears in Bob Spenser's, Black Powder Notebook? If so, it is a very good read, and very instructive. But, it flies in the face of all the modern " experts" who would have you load more powder, and load more shot.
http://members.aye.net/~bspen/starr.html

 

[Dave K]

I can certainly agree with that. I use close to 30% less shot and powder than many people. It is not how many pellets you put in the air, it is how many you put in your target. I have read the articles just mentioned and they are good. Then I started to study what modern loads in a specific gauge called for. You know, you look at the box and it says something like 1 1/8 oz and 2 3/4 dr. equiv. I tried that and it worked! I am shooting old SxS guns that are cylinder bored and I am content and the game is not, with the patterns I get, at the distance I hunt or shoot at.

 

[Britsmoothy]

Take another look, that KG350 is most cert KG950.
The 18.4 is millimeters diameter of bore but it may not be measured as good as some on here would.
They tend to just use works gauge bars to decide what to stamp on them!
IIRC mine says 18.3.

Brit.

 

[paulvallandigham]

Bob Spenser also has a good article on shotgun loads on that site of his. I forgot to mention it.

You are right, Dave: The information on modern boxes of shotgun shells is always a good reference tool to consult when searching for loads for a replica black powder shotgun. Stick with the standard, and Lite loads. The Magnum loads work in guns with choke, but not particularly well in cylinder bore barrels.

Finally, one of our members posted a piece where he described using a different ratio, than 1:1(powder to shot, by volume)for better patterns. He is basically using a 3:4 ratio of powder to shot, measured by volume.

For a 12 gauge, he recommended:
60 grains of powder under 80 grains by volume of shot( 1 1/8 oz).
70 grains of powder and 100 grains of shot( 1 3/8 oz.) [ Note: 7:10 ratio]
80 grains of powder and 110 grains of shot(1 1/2 oz.){Note: a true 3:4 ratio would use 106 grains of shot]
90 grains of powder and 120 grains of shot( 1 5/8 oz.)

I have fired as much as 2 oz. of shot from my 12 gauge, and didn't find much of an improvement in the patterns.

I think you have to put the time in on the patterning boards, no matter what gun and load you choose to use, if you want to maximize your performance.

I use newspaper, because its ubiquitous! No, its next to impossible to count pellet holes from the front with all the printing on the paper, but if you turn the paper over, the torn holes have edges sticking up that can be better seen, and certainly felt. Use a magic marker to circle the holes as you count them. Writ load, range, gauge, component information, along with the pellet counts for a 20 and 30 inch circle, and their quadrants, just like the gun writers do, and you will obtain useable data in time. Make up a template, or buy one, to mark those 20 and 30 inch circles. use lucite, or plexiglass for the template, with a hole in the center, and an "interrupted " 20 inch circle cut in the middle, with the outer edge being your 30 inch circle. Place the template on the paper so that the pattern is centered in the template, rather than centering the template on your aiming point. Use a can of spray paint Krylon, for a quick drying aiming point for this kind of work. Use Black or the color or your choice. The backing board for your newspaper and be a 4 x 4' sheet of plywood, screwed to a couple of posts to fit into the ground or cassons. ( I like to dig holes to put a piece of filed tile in the ground so that I can just put my 4 x 4" posts into the holes to stand the frame up. That way, I can remove the posts and store them so strangers don't come on the range and shoot up or cut off the posts and frames.

Clean the bore with a bore brush and cleaning compounds after each test shot, so you know that each shot fired for testing a pattern is from a clean " new " barrel. Letting crud build in the barrel- either powder residue or lead streaking- will change the patterns. You want to change only one component of your load at a time-- and not something other than the size or amount of shot used, or powder to shot ratio, or any component you choose to change for testing. Letting lead build up in the barrel, or powder residue collect is going to change these variables, and any change in pattern you observe you won't be able to ascribe to just the change in other parts of the load. You will have learned nothing, for all that time on the range.

I hate pattern testing! Its even more boring than sighting in rifles and handguns, and that is going some! :rotf: :surrender: I don't think I am any different than most other guys on that score. So, if you are going to pattern test, do it right the first time! :shocked2: :blah: :rotf: :hmm: :hatsoff:

 

[ric]

yes, that is the article. I found it about a year ago after getting a ml 12ga. Since the stub twist barrels are older than anybody I know, I don't need to test their absolute limits. As long as it patterns decently at 25yds and passes a coffee can test you have a working base load. For hunting, how dead does something have to be?

 

[paulvallandigham]

Don't forget that you need to learn where the Pattern lands, as compared where you are pointing the shotgun. Its the difference between killing and crippling game, and, sometimes, missing altogether.

I shoot my grandfather's breechloading exposed hammer DB 12, with a " Twist finish", but other wise a soft, cold roll steel set of barrels. The gun is over 100 years old. I am very gentle with it, and use very light loads. It still kills if I do my part, and pick my shots close. :thumbsup: I reduces some of the unnecessary pressure on the barrel( that caused it to heat up) by relieving the throat a bit with a tapered reamer. That work had the sign benefit of improving the roundness of my patterns. You should not have to do that kind of thing with old MLers, however.

 

[Pigman]

I finaly got a new battery for my calipers. My gun has both barrels measuring at .714. Would this be Improved choke.

Now where on the internet can I find information on loads for small game, birds, and deer

Thanks,
Mark C. Foster

 

[paulvallandigham]

Read Bob Spenser's Black Powder Notebook. Here.
http://members.aye.net/~bspen/index.html

Bob has an article on shooting fowlers, and he has also printed an article from the late V.M. Starr, with loads for a variety of gauges. Bob is using a 20 gauge. V.M. has loads from everything from 10 gauge down to 28 gauge.

You are not going to find ONE load for any given purpose. This is not like buying shotgun shells at K-mart, the night before Dove season. You load your own, but down the barrel, rather than in a separate cartridge. The only way to know what works for you and your gun is to do pattern and penetration testing. All we can give you is starting points, and general principles that have seemed to work for us.

For instance, I have been using 2 1/2 dram loads in my 20 gauge fowler, but on the basis of a recommendation by a member here, I am going to reduce my powder charge down to 2 drams( 55 grains) and see what kind of patterns I can get with that lighter load.

In my 12 gauge, I have been loading 2 3/4 drams of powder and 1 1/4 oz. of #5 shot for pheasants. I use the same powder charge and 1 1/8 oz. of #8 shot for dove. These are light trap loads in a modern shotgun, but my patterns are good from my cylinder bore MLer. If I wanted to open the patterns further, I would increase the powder charge to 3 drams, with that 1 1/8 oz. of #8 shot. The slightly wider pattern also works when shooting Skeet.

Finally, I have some data from a member's prior posting where he uses a 3: ratio of powder to shot for more dense patterns. 60 grains of powder: with 80 grains of shot by volume. 70 grains of powder with 100 grains of shot by volume( Actually a 7:10 ratio, as a true 3:4 ratio would be 196 grains of shot by volume). 80 grains powder, 110 grains of shot. 90 grains of powder with 120 grains of shot by volume.

Check the tables you can find in the "Links" section up in member Resources, at the top of the index page here, to determine what these volumes of shot weigh in ozs. I have tried some of these loads, and they do seem to add more pellets to the patterns. Of course, any kind of choke in your MLer will dramatically improve patterns and turn a 20 yard gun into a 35 yard. Howeever, if you want more power from a load, you get it by going to a larger pellet size, and loading more of those pellets to increase the number of pellets in the pattern- not by increasing the powder charge. BP is just not capable of producing those GEE WHIZ velocities that you see with some of the modern shotgun shells, with comparable loads of shot.

 

[Joel/Calgary]

I hate pattern testing! Its even more boring than sighting in rifles and handguns, and that is going some! :rotf: :surrender: I don't think I am any different than most other guys on that score. So, if you are going to pattern test, do it right the first time! :shocked2: :blah: :rotf: :hmm: :hatsoff:

Hi, Paul,

You are indeed not alone. If you have a digital camera, you might want to take a look at the "Shotgun Insight" program (http://www.shotgun-insight.com/). There's a free "Lite" version, but the full version is only $45. I just got a digital camera for Christmas, and I think that a LOT of the patterns that I've fired over the years and eyeballed but have never gotten around to counting (80%+ of them) are finally going to get done properly. Yeah, I have an astounding collection of things waiting for the necessary round to-its.

Regards,
Joel

 

[Pigman]

Thanks for all the help!

I have one final question.

On my shotgun the barels measure from front to hooked breach 26.5 inches. None of the currently available Pedersoli shotguns have this barrel length. Is this an older style or has mine been shortened?

Thanks,
Foster From Flint