12L14 barrel comes apart

[Loyalist Dave]

No, No you don't. You just "think" that you do.

You have second hand knowledge of the powder used. That's not an issue anyway.... but it could become one....,
You know that the barrel company claims to use 12L14, but until that actual barrel is tested, you only suspect it's the same steel in the ruptured barrel.
You have the opinion of one metallurgist that the steel should not be used, but a lot of other metallurgists don't agree, obviously, since it's still being used.
You have NO analysis of the barrel...,
You have NO tests of barrels made in the same way and ruptured under controlled conditions to find exactly why the barrel burst. For example,
We don't know if metal fatigue is a factor.
We don't know if length of the barrel was a factor.
We don't know if swamping is a factor.
We don't know if length and swamping combined are a factor.
We don't know if there was some flaw in the steel when the steel was made.
We don't know if that particular barrel was made with a flaw not normally found, or if all of that company's barrels are going to fail, with it just a matter of time,
We don't know if barrel corrosion is a factor

In short we, and that includes you, do not know.... we merely suspect it may have been the steel itself...

I have a degree and 32 years experience with forensic archaeology..., crimes scenes and what not..., so again, you may be absolutely correct, but there is not much to back up the opinion..., yet.

LD

 

[Barry Strickland]

I have to wonder about a couple of things. You mentioned that the rifle was a full stocked swamped barrel. Check and see if the fracture occurred where the barrel pin lug was dovetailed into the barrel at that point. This is a "no no" for the construction of a swamped barrel in a gun. Just a thought.

 

[vintovka]

Glad to see someone finally added "swamping" to list. It was my first thought.

 

[nkbj]

Unless you have a tried and true verified formula for producing a ring or a barrel burst every time it's loaded that way you cannot expect that every time a ball is short started that the strength of the barrel will be overcome. The pressure wave phenomena just isn't going to behave the same every time. So every once in a while a ball not properly seated will produce a ring or a burst. Usually it sends the ball on down range, the rifle is none the worse for wear and the shooter is ready for a cold one.

 

[Professor flintlock]

You gotta seat the ball on the powder.!!!! ...............

Totally agree with you. Our local club had a guy make a canoe gun out of a beautiful long rifle. My self rang a beautiful Ken Breisen Shutzen bullet gun. Forgot to upset the bullet and had lowered the barrel waiting for better conditions. All was not lost the barrel made 3 nice pistol barrels with 1/18 twist.

 

[smoothshooter]

A shooting friend of mine showed me a once nice .50 cal flint lock rifle with a swamped barrel he has, at the indoor match yesterday; that had split the barrel and blew the front part of the full stock apart. No one was hurt but it was an eye opener to examine. Jeff said it happened at last months indoor match which I missed.
He had loaned it to a new shooter and was talking him through the loading sequence and got interrupted just as the ball was about to be pushed home. The new shooter got the patched ball down bore about ten inches as I understand it and for some reason decided that was good enough and touched it off before Jeff could get back to him.
The barrel looked like the split started just ahead of the narrowest part of the swamp profile an ran almost to the muzzle.
I have never before seen a patched ball short start at any barrel position even bulge a barrel let alone split it wide open so this was quite a surprise to me.
I am sure short seats happen quite often especially with new shooters and fouled barrels but it's the first barrel I have ever seen split or even be bulged by it from a patch ball.
When I got home I looked up the barrel maker and the steel type used that is posted by Bob Roller on the internet. It is 12L14 but the chart did not say wither it was cold or hot rolled.

100% shooter error. In this case, virtually any barrel of similar dimensions with stronger steel could have blown.
I hope this does not turn into a witch hunt for identifying the maker of the barrel. Distraction and talking on the firing line has caused many accidents and damaged guns. Especially with muzzleloaders.

 

[Archer 756]

Just was wondering was this barrel ever proofed. All of my builds go through proofing at three time normal charge If not oh well

 

[Davey Boy]

Let's add that talking on the phone to train a person to load a gun was not a brilliant idea.

 

[M. De Land]

Unless you have a tried and true verified formula for producing a ring or a barrel burst every time it's loaded that way you cannot expect that every time a ball is short started that the strength of the barrel will be overcome. The pressure wave phenomena just isn't going to behave the same every time. So every once in a while a ball not properly seated will produce a ring or a burst. Usually it sends the ball on down range, the rifle is none the worse for wear and the shooter is ready for a cold one.

I'm surprised no one has brought up metal fatigue yet or phases of the moon !
I know for a fact 12L14 is not designed for gun barrel steel. I know 1137, 8620 and 4140 are gun barrel certified steel alloys and that they are all superior in strength. to 12L14 for this purpose.
The main reason it is used by so many muzzle loading barrel makers is because it machines so smoothly and easily and in most cases is adequate to Black Powder pressure. I don't think it should ever be used for a swamped barrel design or a gun that will be used in very cold weather as the already dismal hoop stress numbers plunge even farther downward as the temperature declines.
It is a free country to do as one pleases in this regard but personally I will no longer purchase a barrel made of 12L14 when there are better steel alloys available that are fabricated into just as high quality barrels.

 

[M. De Land]

12L14 machines very nicely with a nice surface finish, and it’s easy on tooling.

Yes, very true! I would think this most benefiting of straight deep hole drilling/boring which is the heart of any accurate barrel !

 

[M. De Land]

Let's add that talking on the phone to train a person to load a gun was not a brilliant idea.

The only part of the loading sequence not under direct supervision by the owner and very experienced shooter was the seating of the ball.
There was no excessive powder or more than one patched ball in the load that split the barrel according to what the owner told me.
Some one brought up the possibility of a lug tennon in the swamp that may be true as I did not notice if that was the case. As I said I will get the gun over here if possible and do a more thorough examination and take some pictures as memories are not particularly know for accuracy especially when accompanied by a bias which would be true in my case .

 

[M. De Land]

No, No you don't. You just "think" that you do.

You have second hand knowledge of the powder used. That's not an issue anyway.... but it could become one....,
You know that the barrel company claims to use 12L14, but until that actual barrel is tested, you only suspect it's the same steel in the ruptured barrel.
You have the opinion of one metallurgist that the steel should not be used, but a lot of other metallurgists don't agree, obviously, since it's still being used.
You have NO analysis of the barrel...,
You have NO tests of barrels made in the same way and ruptured under controlled conditions to find exactly why the barrel burst. For example,
We don't know if metal fatigue is a factor.
We don't know if length of the barrel was a factor.
We don't know if swamping is a factor.
We don't know if length and swamping combined are a factor.
We don't know if there was some flaw in the steel when the steel was made.
We don't know if that particular barrel was made with a flaw not normally found, or if all of that company's barrels are going to fail, with it just a matter of time,
We don't know if barrel corrosion is a factor

In short we, and that includes you, do not know.... we merely suspect it may have been the steel itself...

I have a degree and 32 years experience with forensic archaeology..., crimes scenes and what not..., so again, you may be absolutely correct, but there is not much to back up the opinion..., yet.

LD

Well we know it burst , we know it was not over charged, we know it had one patched ball in it , we know the barrel is swamped, we know it was short started and we know it was 12L14 steel. Seems like a reasonable suspicion of cause and effect to me !

 

[M. De Land]

100% shooter error. In this case, virtually any barrel of similar dimensions with stronger steel could have blown.
I hope this does not turn into a witch hunt for identifying the maker of the barrel. Distraction and talking on the firing line has caused many accidents and damaged guns. Especially with muzzleloaders.

Many muzzle loading barrel makers use 12L14 and the low pressure of black powder ignition allows it with almost no incidence of failure so mentioning the maker is not necessary.
I feel the discussion though is very important so shooters can make informed decisions about safety parameters available to them .
Seems to me that swamped barrel and very cold weather use are reason enough to have a discussion about barrel steel strength particularly in light of a resent failure.

 

[Flintfan69]

Not sure what the controversy is here. The barrel failed because of the short started ball. The barrel would have been ruined regardless of what it was made out of. There is a significant probability it would have split and/or bulge regardless of whether it was made of 4140, 1137, 8620 or 12L14. Saying it only burst because it was made from 12L14 is simply foolish, and is clearly being done to further a personal narrative/opinion. There is a significant chance it could have failed with any of those alloys given the circumstances.

The fault lies with the careless instructor.

 

[Loyalist Dave]

Well we know it burst , we know it was not over charged, we know it had one patched ball in it , we know the barrel is swamped, we know it was short started and we know it was 12L14 steel. Seems like a reasonable suspicion of cause and effect to me !

AGAIN...,
You were told..., all of the above other than you were shown the barrel had burst...,

It should be 12L14 steel, but..., until tested, you don't Know that... ever heard of a disgruntled employee? The guys at the steel mill could've sent inferior blanks by accident or on purpose, or a guy at the barrel company could've slipped in a bad blank...

You don't know it wasn't overcharged..., you were told that. You trust your friend, OK, So what? What if the powder sold to your friend was contaminated by some smokeless powder?

Your friend was NOT observing when the guy short started the ball..., you do not know if the novice jammed it down hard, jammed it down with the rammer, or simply popped it down and then fired the rifle..., Your Friend didn't double check with the ramrod, and didn't see if the ramrod was used by the novice and was not rammed home, because he would've found seen the mistake and would've seated the ball, right?

You cannot take the second hand information and come to any conclusion. You have a burst barrel, nothing more, and you NEED a lot more. As of right now you have "mere suspicion", and a hypothesis. That Ain't Enough. There needs to be testing.

LD

 

[bpd303]

Glad to see someone finally added "swamping" to list. It was my first thought.

Same here.

 

[M. De Land]

Not sure what the controversy is here. The barrel failed because of the short started ball. The barrel would have been ruined regardless of what it was made out of. There is a significant probability it would have split and/or bulge regardless of whether it was made of 4140, 1137, 8620 or 12L14. Saying it only burst because it was made from 12L14 is simply foolish, and is clearly being done to further a personal narrative/opinion. There is a significant chance it could have failed with any of those alloys given the circumstances.

The fault lies with the careless instructor.

No, a short start ball of 2-3 inches will almost never have any effect on a muzzle loading barrel of certified steel without some other contributing issue.

 

[Rudyard]

Ever the Devils advocate and very fond of Damascus & twist barrels and never managed to burst any antient Scelp barrel or any modern barrels includeing Douglass & Orian barrels that some Burket ' Expert ' engaged several issues of' Muzzle Blast ' condemning Jerry Cunningham who had made thousand of barrels & the expert Burket never made one . Nor did any barrel fail UK Proof inc the despised (By some) Indian ones . I did have one customer bulge one but that was his error it was inches from a dove tail loop that was unaffected . He lost his claim & the rifle . I stuck in a new barrel & used the unaffected sections . .Ive used some real impurity ridden relics out of some where East of Suez (Where the best is like the worst where there aint no' ten comandments' & a man can raise a thirst ) Sorry about that couldn't resist it . I am' Rudyard' after all . Accordingly I have no particular bias toward any barrel made today . Nothings fool proof .
Regards Rudyard

 

[smoothshooter]

Many muzzle loading barrel makers use 12L14 and the low pressure of black powder ignition allows it with almost no incidence of failure so mentioning the maker is not necessary.
I feel the discussion though is very important so shooters can make informed decisions about safety parameters available to them .
Seems to me that swamped barrel and very cold weather use are reason enough to have a discussion about barrel steel strength particularly in light of a resent failure.

There may be a little truth to that, but avoiding the softer steel really limits your options on shopping for a muzzleloader since that may be what almost all manufacturers use.

 

[M. De Land]

AGAIN...,
You were told..., all of the above other than you were shown the barrel had burst...,

It should be 12L14 steel, but..., until tested, you don't Know that... ever heard of a disgruntled employee? The guys at the steel mill could've sent inferior blanks by accident or on purpose, or a guy at the barrel company could've slipped in a bad blank...

You don't know it wasn't overcharged..., you were told that. You trust your friend, OK, So what? What if the powder sold to your friend was contaminated by some smokeless powder?

Your friend was NOT observing when the guy short started the ball..., you do not know if the novice jammed it down hard, jammed it down with the rammer, or simply popped it down and then fired the rifle..., Your Friend didn't double check with the ramrod, and didn't see if the ramrod was used by the novice and was not rammed home, because he would've found seen the mistake and would've seated the ball, right?

You cannot take the second hand information and come to any conclusion. You have a burst barrel, nothing more, and you NEED a lot more. As of right now you have "mere suspicion", and a hypothesis. That Ain't Enough. There needs to be testing.

LD

I know the person who gave me the information is reliable, very precise in his description of the event and I physically examined the gun in question. I will examine it again in greater detail as he is bringing the rifle and splintered stock over today. The stock should also have some contributing evidence to add to the incident cause.
Only my memory and interpretation of what he said would be in question so I will revisit that when he comes by today.