12L14 barrel comes apart

[nkbj]

No, a short start ball of 2-3 inches will almost never have any effect on a muzzle loading barrel of certified steel without some other contributing issue.

Yep, usually the unseated ball just goes on down range. But sometimes everything comes together and an intense front of pressure rams into the back of the ball, the inertia of the ball is adequate to deflect the wave into the sides of the hole and you get a ring in your barrel.
It's rare but we can win the lottery and we can blow one up.

 

[M. De Land]

1. There is a message here for new shooters, don't fire a short started rifle.

2. There is a message here for those instructing new shooters, don't allow your trainee to short start a rifle.

3. Before allowing the trainee to fire the rifle ensure that he has not short started said rifle by instructing said trainee to insert the ramrod into the barrel.

Don't cry when your very nice rifle is reduced to a tomato stake.

And don't ever make a mistake even though well experienced in muzzle loading, there is not much room for error! About the same thing as never dry balling, there are only those who have and those who are going to.

 

[M. De Land]

My point has not been, "It wasn't the steel".

My point is until somebody who knows about steel looks at the barrel, not photos, not listening to "eye witness accounts", nor comparing anecdotal stories about other rifles and other steels (I can show you a Browning rifle barrel that was split like a banana due to snow at the muzzle...so what?) ..., but actually examines the barrel, tests and confirms it's is 12L14, and has the qualifications to match, then confirms it was a rupture due to the steel and not another anomaly..., until then..., it is merely supposition. IT would be nice if the examination included a measured and tested conclusion that it was indeed simply the steel, not poorly cared for, or had a flaw nobody saw at the factory...

LD

Well, you can lead a horse to water, after that it's up to him.

 

[M. De Land]

Don't short start a bore sight Doubt this was a 12L14 barrel

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It wasn't black powder and 12-15 K PSI either and probably out weighs a .50 cal patch ball by a factor of ten !

 

[Okie Hog]

About the same thing as never dry balling, there are only those who have and those who are going to.

Been shooting muzzleloaders since the mid 1960s and never fired a short started round.

Had the shooter not fired a short started round the guy would still have a nice muzzeloader. You can blame the barrel steel, the moon phase or whatever. Fact is had the shooter not fired a short started round the guy would still have a nice muzzeloader.

 

[M. De Land]

Been shooting muzzleloaders since the mid 1960s and never fired a short started round.

Had the shooter not fired a short started round the guy would still have a nice muzzeloader. You can blame the barrel steel, the moon phase or whatever. Fact is had the shooter not fired a short started round the guy would still have a nice muzzeloader.

Oh, if you shoot regularly you all most certainly have shot a short seated ball at one time or another. You either didn't know it or you don't remember it. This happens quite regularly when breech fouling build up. The best way I'm aware of to avoid it is to wipe between shots as some match shooters do and mark your loading depth on the load rod..
I know you said short started not short seated which is what I'm referring to.
I've not yet shot a ramrod down range or had a chain fire in my revolvers and I don't remember any short starts but hey the LORD willing, I still have time for all that !

 

[Skychief]

Where are these indoor muzzleloader matches taking place? I've never heard of such and can't imagine one.

Serious question, Skychief.

 

[M. De Land]

Where are these indoor muzzleloader matches taking place? I've never heard of such and can't imagine one.

Serious question, Skychief.

Palmer Alaska indoor/outdoor range. 25 indoor for winter shoots. 50 and 100 yards covered outdoor for spring, summer and fall.

 

[SamTex1949]

Palmer Alaska indoor/outdoor range. 25 indoor for winter shoots. 50 and 100 yards covered outdoor for spring, summer and fall.

Must have one heck of a evacuation air handling system !

 

[Okie Hog]

I've not yet shot a ramrod down range or had a chain fire in my revolvers and I don't remember any short starts but hey the LORD willing, I still have time for all that !

i've had a few chainfires. Don't remember shooting a ramrod down range. i'm eat up with dry ballers syndrome. Received my, .54 caliber re-bore from Mr. Hoyt. First loading was a dry ball. Luckily i had the nipple wrench. Worked some powder into the flame channel, installed the nipple and fired. Was surprised then the ball struck the 50 yard target. Thats the hole at top right.

 

[Professor flintlock]

Where are these indoor muzzleloader matches taking place? I've never heard of such and can't imagine one.

Serious question, Skychief.

Come to canal Fulton we shoot in doors ,out an open portal. Oldest shooting club in America, 1812 , shooting ever since,

 

[toot]

Don't short start a bore sight Doubt this was a 12L14 barrel

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all I can say is WOW!!

 

[JCKelly]

They could not experimentally blow up test barrels with a single charge and short started ball. If they loaded the barrel then short started a ball, it would blow up. In this case we have a conundrum. The observer wasn’t observing but seems 100% sure of what happened.
The talk of “barrel steels” is a red herring. Everyone knows - Barrel Steels are those carefully inspected at the Steel Mill to insure absence of those cracks that can naturally occur in steel making. There are NO barrel quality steels that have sulfur actually added to them. It really is not a matter of "tensile strength". It is freedom from cracks or other defects, along with resistance to failure from those defects that may be present anyway - steels that barrel steels are those suitable for smokeless powder pressures. I’m not disputing that things happened as stated. It’s just possible that we don’t know everything about this incident.

 

[mhb]

Must respectfully disagree with Mr. Pierce's statement, quoted above: having worked for some years as a barrel maker, and having made some hundreds of barrels, I can state that barrel makers do, in fact, order 'barrel quality' steels from their suppliers, and require a certificate for each lot verifying the composition, physicals, and quality thereof. In addition, I worked with a metallurgist who re-checked each lot on arrival, and never had to reject any. The stainless alloy we used was 416R BQ - the 'R' indicating that the steel was re-sulphurized to improve machinability, and the 'BQ' that the steel was certified as barrel quality. The only problem I ever encountered with the steel we received was one particular bar of 1.25" 416R which, upon finishing the bore of the first barrel made from it, proved to have a 'pipe' or seam of slag running lengthwise through the center. This is not uncommon in rolled steel bars, particularly the first run from the furnace, and the bar in question was replaced by the supplier, while the barrel was scrapped.

mhb - MIke

 

[FishDFly]

Reading the book, "Mountain Men" by Carl P. Russel. Work on the book was started in 1930. In the chapter on "Firearms of the Beaver Hunters", it was discussed that barrel failures back then were caused by human failure, not paying attention to the details of loading.

 

[JCKelly]

In the1980's John Baird, who wrote The Buckskin Report, had an interest in muzzle-loader safety. With some guidance from him I ran metallurgical studies on a number of failed gun barrels. I acted as expert witness for the plaintiff in more than one law-suit. I summed up these 15 failures in a three-part article published in Muzzle Blasts Oct, Nov and Dec 1985. I will be glad to send a complete copy to any of you who will send me you real email.

 

[Whitworth]

This from "The Engineer" May 11th 1860 and comes from the Research Press website.

"Mr. Whitworth uses the best material that can be obtained - material that costs no less than £60 per ton, and which is very hard and tough, and difficult to work, but which is also correspondingly strong and durable. That it is so there can be no doubt. In illustration of its great strength, the following may be taken. Mr. Whitworth put into a rifle-barrel, 1in. in diameter at the breech, with a bore of .49 in., a leaden plug 18 in. long, as tightly as it could be driven home upon the charge. It was fired with an ordinary charge of powder, and the leaden plug, being expanded by the explosion remained in the barrel, the gases generated by the gunpowder all passing out through the touch-hole."

The standard powder charge was 68 grains. Wonder what would have happened if the 18 inch long plug had been short started? YMMV

 

[M. De Land]

Must have one heck of a evacuation air handling system !

Usually the air inside is kept pretty clear but on occasion when the line is full it gets kind of smoky for a bit.

 

[Cattywompuss]

A machinist friend of mine was very surprised when I mentioned the 12L steel that has been under discussion here. But when he considered BP pressures he figured it was probably fine. He mentioned that it has great finishing qualities. But it was surprising to him.

 

[Rudyard]

I always though the archaic word for a female dog was gyp or gype. The name is used in the Dr. Dolittle books as the name for talking dog that taught Dr. Dolittle how to talk to the animals. Looks like spell check helped you out by correcting your spelling. .Note that checking the definition of gyp on the internet only comes up as the term for a college servant.

Back to the topic. I thought that the 12L14 barrel that caused all the commotion was burst by someone using smokeless powder. As often stated, and quite valid, 12L14 steel is not suitable for modern gun barrel steel. It is strong enough for the much lower pressures encountered with the use of black powder. I would probably avoid using Triple Seven at max charges in my 12L14 barred rifles.

Whatever some colledge servant or antient term for female dogs .
Kipling wrote B I T C H Not ' Gripe '( viz to moan about some thing ) It should be Me as is writeing the article. Not the bloody computer with some PC notion . What would it call a basted file? . Perhaps an illigitimat file ? . Re barrel steels far more barrels where made of wrought iron & the best barrels where one mass of welds . I have one barrel over three hundred years old since the maker died in1720 .Its a bit' smokey' but sound as a bell & Iv'e shot some real borderline relics but Ime still in one piece & so are they . I doubt they had fancy numbers in thier time though Greener writes of 'Two penny Wednesbury Scelp' &' Sham Dam' in passing but exalts' best Damascus '.& so do I .Since the early 60s Iv'e never burst a barrel though I did get a 3/8th" unwrap in a rabbit hole . It being my practice to fire off the powder charge come dark so as not to disturb Bairns. The rabbit hole or a sough being a good muffler . Probably an un felt root . I Just docked it back & still have it forty years later . Not that I use it today but as a lad I used it a lot . I was going to quote Larry the Lamb & Mr Grouser but ile not it was a UK wireless thing.
Regards Rudyard