1717 St. Etienne musket Kinda long

[spudnut]

I have a 1717 St.Etienne Musket from Middlesex[url] Village.In[/url] all the desciptions at all three India gun dealers they say "the 1717 was never shipped to New France and was issued to troops in Europe and was soon replaced by the 1728 Tulle Musket.
I was thumbing through the Encyclpedia of the American Revolution and there under the musket section is a picture of an original 1717 St. Etienne musket .
Now how do you suppose they showed up here? Did the French send them over to help the colonists? were they traded to the natives?
Another question is Centermark offers along with their Fusil Dechasse the Fusil Grenedeir.This one has only the single barrel band like the Etienne and looks a lot like it (tho the lock is different)Where does this musket fit in ? as to what Ive read the French Marine were supplied with the 1728 Tulle and Tulle de chasse?
In conclusion.....I should have done my homework before I ordered the 1717 and gotta figure out how she fits in :shake: (see there was this pirate.....) Mark

 

My understanding is that the Tulle Grenedier was used by some Marine units. As for the 1717, a few may have made it over as surplus in later years, they just were not issued here at the time...

 

[Stophel]

As I understand it, the 1717 (and the other familiar later patterns) were Army muskets. The French never sent Army soldiers to America until the Revolution. Canada was the responsibility of the Navy, and it was French Marines that were in Canada and America, and they were not issued Army muskets.

 

[wallgunner]

Neumann says that the 1728 was being shipped to Canada by the 1730's to supplement the Tulle arms. I believe in Mollers book he has pictures a Model 1728 that is branded la Marine on the buttstock. I can't find any evidence that the 1717 was every in Canada, but Army musket are proven to be. Weren't some regular army regiments here in America for the F&I war?
Look around in some of the better books, and you'll see 1717's that are restocked. But like another post said, they could have came at anytime. Did the French practice the same principles as the British as in issueing the older arms first? Then maybe a few would have made it to Canada as used up, barely servicable. But in Canada none the less. Bob Bearor states in his "The Battle on Snowshoes" that the Marines carried either 1717 or 1728. He might have proof.

 

[tg]

" as to what Ive read the French Marine were supplied with the 1728 Tulle and Tulle de chasse?"

I have not seen anything to indicate the 1717 was sent to the Americas, I am not certain what the 1728 Tulle mentioned above is there were seveal types of guns made in Tulle at that time, the De Chase or hunting guns was usually of smaller bore than the military guns and intended for civilian or militia use, I have not seen a reference that this gun was issued to the military, I would be interested in your sources.

 

[tg]

I just looked through Bouchards book and the Grenadier from Tulle circa 1717 was very similar to the 1717 regulation pattern except for the bridel on the frizzen to frizzen spring and the barrel band at the end of the stock on the pattern 1717, the Tulle grenadier was like the Tulle common musket except the Grenadier had the band at mid stock, the Tulle hunting guns of various grades were like the common musket (no band on stock) but in smaller bore and finished to different degrees from plain to very fine, one may be able to modify the 1717 to look more like a Tulle Grenadier if one could modify the lock and remove the front band.

 

[Wes/Tex]

The only known M.1717's that came to North America were those issued to the companies of the Karre Regiment that served at Louisburg. Karre was a Swiss officer in French service who had ties to the arsenal at St. Etienne rather than the Tulle works who provided the guns to the Compagnies franches de la Marine. The second company who went to Louisianna arrived in 1732, and probably were issued the M.1728 musket since they had only been recently raised and the French Army had begun to transition to the later musket. Having said that, it's not likely any of these M.1717's got into civilian or militia hands.

The Grenadier musket, unless there's been a change, was merely the standard fusil with a centr band and made in .62 rather than the .69 caliber of the standard military guns.

 

[tg]

Sounds good to me I do have a reference that shows the common and the Grenadier both being the same bore size which is larger than the hunting guns.

 

[tg]

I just looked at the 1717 on the site mentioned and it appears not to have the band at the end of the forestock so it may not really be a 1717 reulation pattern anyway? I believe this was a distinguishing feature of this model?

 

[spudnut]

The Tulle Grenedier as made by Centermark doesnt have the forward barrel band either.The 1728 does

 

[tg]

The grenadier should not have a forward strap this is a feature of the 1717 I believe, I think the 1728 has a different configured front strap than the 1717, this is with the originals, I do not know what barrel the middlesex 1717 has I think the originals were oct to having a single flat to the end of the muzzle on top, it just looked like you could take the 1717 mentioned above and loose the bridle and have a gun that was pretty much like the grenadier except for possibly the barrel and this type of gun was in the Americas quite early

 

[spudnut]

The barrel is flat just on top,The one pictured in the Encyclopedia of the American Revolution only has the single band,getting this from? ..Mark

 

[spudnut]

When you refer to Bouchards book what book is this? I'm not familiar with it.Is it still in print?...Mark

 

[tg]

The 1717 has a small band near the muzzle, it shows in the book you mentioned if you look closely, it shows better in the pics in "Battle Weapons of The American Revolution" (pgs.44&88)Bouchards book is "The Fusil de Tulle In New France 1691-1741' I think it is still available thru TOW and most vendors and is around 10 bucks it has a lot of detail on the guns from Tulle and also makes some comparisons with these guns and others.I think the original 1717 were oct at the breech for a ways the had the top flat continue, maybe some others will add to this I have not done a great deal of study on the military guns but this is what i get out of it.

 

[Wes/Tex]

I believe the confusion here is that the M.1717 had a band around the stock a couple inches from the end while the M.1728 had full barrel bands around the wood and barrel both. The last time I looked, and it's been a while, the M.1717 on MVTC site did not have a band around the stock. Probably ought to look but what's the fun in that?!!

 

[spudnut]

Yes there is one band with a ring for sling attachment around the stock and barrel.When you say M.1717 are you talking about a Tulle or the St.Ettiene

 

[tg]

That is correct Wes, that is the difference I was refering tp between the 1717 and the grenadier...that little band around the stock, I do not think it is there on the Indian replicas..and Spudnut the 1717 was not made in Tulle as I recall, the common musket, the Grenadier , Buccanier and many grades of de Chase guns were but not the 1717 regulation modle.

 

[spudnut]

No, there is a 1717 St.Etienne musket this is the one I am asking about and is offered as a India built reproduction from Middlesex Village,Loyalist Arms,and Military Heritage and an original is listed on page 203 of Collectors Illistrated Encyclopedia of the American revolution

 

[tg]

I have the Encyclopedia you mentioned and saw the mdl 1717 I think the small band on the stock is there it is just hard to see it shows better on the pics in the other book "Battle Weapons....
I suspect these guns were made an st Etinne and probably Leige as well. I did not mean to hijack your thread but was interested in the comparison of the 1717 and the Grenadier and common musket from Tulle the concensus seems to be that the 1717 did not make it to New France as near as I can tell but I have not done a of of military gun research, my thought was you could almost make a Grenadier out of the Indian made 1717 which would have been sent over to the Americas, I guess it might be time to restate your original question about the model 1717 as I have taken us on quite a jog around several different guns and armouries it looks to me like the Indian made version is missing the front stock band, aside from that and possible the barrel configuration at the breech it may be pretty close, but were there any of them over here? if so when? what time period are you doing? if you are doing a later period it may be more plausible that some have made their way across the Atlantic.The Indian made 1717 is probably as close as most of the French replicas out there so HC issue is probably not a big one.

 

[spudnut]

No, Please, you have not hijacked the thread at all and I have enjoyed your observations.Very informative :hatsoff: