1728 French Lock?

[Millford_P]

Hi,
Any experts on French or French style arms that know what this is? I’ve got an old lock plate that looks very similar to a French lock from 1728-1754… but I’m not really sure. I’m thinking of getting rid of the ill fitting Potsdam hammer of restoring it back to its original configuration.

The lock measures 6 3/8in X 1 1/4 in, just a tad shy of the 6 1/2in length this other French lock that I have in the final photo. It has a detachable pan.

Maybe it’s a dragoon lock, maybe not even French? Any ideas are appreciated, thanks!

 

[Millford_P]

Any opinions? Maybe these aren't even French?

 

[Mle1822]

Well. First instinct is 1746, but the two holes behind the cock are a bit odd. Also the cock on the old lock is sort of mishaped, but could be just poor quality controll back then. Can You make better pictures of the marking ?

 

[Clark Badgett]

There were 3 distinct locks used by French arsenals between 1728 and 1754. The locks pictured have the overall styling. The 1726 was 6 5/16”. The 1746 had no pan bridle. The 1754 had the pan bridle returned and was 6 5/8” long.

 

[rich pierce]

The curve of the lock suggests it’s early. French locks are not my area of expertise but in general the lock plate shape suggests 1720s to me. Mike Brooks would have a better estimate.

 

[PathfinderNC]

The two lock plates don’t look very similar. The percussion one has pronounced banana shape to it, indicating an older lock plate. The tail ends are different as well.

 

[Loyer]

Here is a lock from , what I was told is a 1717 French musket. The cock and frizzen have had some welding repairs to them (initiated by me).
Wood stock has been restored as it was made into a "sporter" long ago.

 

[PathfinderNC]

Here is a lock from , what I was told is a 1717 French musket.

I really doubt a musket and that it’s so early with that bridled frizzen (with a roller as well!) .

 

[Clark Badgett]

I really doubt a musket and that it’s so early with that bridled frizzen (with a roller as well!) .

The spring is not original. Didn’t the 1717 have the odd bridle from frizzen to the spring? I don’t think its a 1717 lock.

 

[Loyer]

French Flintlocks are a mystery to me. Best guess what this is ? Another clue .....47 1/2" barrel

 

[Clark Badgett]

French Flintlocks are a mystery to me. Best guess what this is ?

Would need to see much more of the gun to try to get a handle on what it is. Details matter.

 

[PathfinderNC]

The spring is not original. Didn’t the 1717 have the odd bridle from frizzen to the spring? I don’t think its a 1717 lock.

Yup the 1717 Saint Etinne musket did have the odd bridle- you are correct again

 

[Loyer]

More pics....

 

[Clark Badgett]

More pics....

Well it does have some musket style furnishings. The band and entry thimble on the second set of pictures you put up don’t look original at all, at least not from the picture. What is the bore size?

 

[Millford_P]

Thanks for all of the replies.
What is throwing me off now, is the similar (but different) stamp that each lock has on the plate. It's a little fleur-de-lis with an H and L or I and H on either side. Looking at some photos of French locks online and in a few books I have, it appears that (at least in the early days) this was hand engraved - did some arsenals stamp while others engrave? Maybe the stamps are from a later date, or from an independent contractor?

 

[Clark Badgett]

Thanks for all of the replies.
What is throwing me off now, is the similar (but different) stamp that each lock has on the plate. It's a little fleur-de-lis with an H and L or I and H on either side. Looking at some photos of French locks online and in a few books I have, it appears that (at least in the early days) this was hand engraved - did some arsenals stamp while others engrave? Maybe the stamps are from a later date, or from an independent contractor?

View attachment 285960View attachment 285961

Stamps are often seen on earlier French stuff, with engraving taking over sometime in the 1760s.

 

[Flintlock1640]

Hi,
Any experts on French or French style arms that know what this is? I’ve got an old lock plate that looks very similar to a French lock from 1728-1754… but I’m not really sure. I’m thinking of getting rid of the ill fitting Potsdam hammer of restoring it back to its original configuration.

The lock measures 6 3/8in X 1 1/4 in, just a tad shy of the 6 1/2in length this other French lock that I have in the final photo. It has a detachable pan.

Maybe it’s a dragoon lock, maybe not even French? Any ideas are appreciated, thanks!

It looks to me like a 1754 lock. The pan on those is deeper than on the 1728. These locks will have the maker's initials outside the Fleur de lis. I'm not familiar with those initials.

 

[Flintlock1640]

More pics....

Yours has been messed with so it is hard to say what it was originally. The lock is 1728. To the right of the side plate you can see where the sling swivel went through the side from the lock so without question this is either a 1717 with the wrong lock or the 1728. The 1717 did not have barrel bands and the barrel was pinned. The 1728 had barrel bands. If you can get the modern ramrod pipes and hand made bands off of it and can check the barrel that will help tell what it was.

 

[FlinterNick]

Hi,
Any experts on French or French style arms that know what this is? I’ve got an old lock plate that looks very similar to a French lock from 1728-1754… but I’m not really sure. I’m thinking of getting rid of the ill fitting Potsdam hammer of restoring it back to its original configuration.

The lock measures 6 3/8in X 1 1/4 in, just a tad shy of the 6 1/2in length this other French lock that I have in the final photo. It has a detachable pan.

Maybe it’s a dragoon lock, maybe not even French? Any ideas are appreciated, thanks!
View attachment 282417View attachment 282418View attachment 282419View attachment 282420

Doesn’t look French to me, possibly German or Dutch or even Austrian.

The 1728 French pattern lock was very common in Europe of the time, and was copied by the Dutch and many builders Germany, and was even used as the basis for many smaller rifle locks.

Early German muskets used a 1728 style lock that had a deep curve, some were straight too.

Dutch locks were very similar too.

Def not Spanish too.

The bridle looks much more modern, possibly a replacement.

Intenrals don’t look French to me, are different look more German.

1728’s had very straight plates too.

1717 plates were 6 1/2 inches long, some had a curve some didn’t, the later ones didn’t.

Most 1717’s were marked IFC on the plate, with a few being marked St.Etinien.

 

[FlinterNick]

It looks to me like a 1754 lock. The pan on those is deeper than on the 1728. These locks will have the maker's initials outside the Fleur de lis. I'm not familiar with those initials.

There were minor differences between the 1728 and 1754 locks. Writers and collectors often pick out differences to call salient but they’re hardly differences you’d find across 7-10 samples.

My opinion the 1728 and 54 are the same lock essentially. The only thing that is really different between both of them is the thickness of the internals, but i don’t think that was an intentional improvement.

Where the 1754 is improved greatly is with the mainspring, not in size or shape but rather the quality of the steel. The French were using better steel and improved their tempering methods, the 1754 lock had excellent trials and was a prime competitor to the Brown Bess.