1795 Springfield Aiming?

[jbkrab]

I recently purchased a repro 1795 Springfield. At 25 yards, I can shoot a 3" group. But at 50 yards I'm having issues of getting on the paper, and I know it's my aiming. Without a front sight I'm lost. I know I need to get back to the range and just start shooting and figure it out, but I'd like to know if anyone has any hints that could help. My load is 60 gr FFg topped with Flax tow, a .662 RB and more Flax Tow over that. I know most would say I need to shoot a paper over the ball, but I'm using what I have. Thank you.

 

[curator]

The 1795 Springfield is patterned after the French Charleville, and neither of them were designed to be "aimed." Simply pointing or sighting down the barrel should get you on to a 2'X2" target. I have a Pedersoli 1795 musket that I also load with .662 round balls. When I am loading with paper cartridges the ball is loaded wrapped in the empty paper. When I am loading from flask and powder measure, I patch the ball with .016 pillow ticking. Bare-ball or Ball and tow has never been very accurate for me. Lucky to hit the broad side of a barn at 50 yards.
'

 

[jbkrab]

In my research what you wrote is what I originally expected. I plan on working with different loads but for now I need to figure out how to at least sight the musket. I'm not looking for any accuracy, just want to see some results of my effort. I did sight down the barrel, but not very proficiently I will say. Very disappointing to me, but I now see this as a challenge to confront.

The 1795 Springfield is patterned after the French Charleville, and neither of them were designed to be "aimed." Simply pointing or sighting down the barrel should get you on to a 2'X2" target. I have a Pedersoli 1795 musket that I also load with .662 round balls. When I am loading with paper cartridges the ball is loaded wrapped in the empty paper. When I am loading from flask and powder measure, I patch the ball with .016 pillow ticking. Bare-ball or Ball and tow has never been very accurate for me. Lucky to hit the broad side of a barn at 50 yards.
'

 

[Artificer]

I recently purchased a repro 1795 Springfield. At 25 yards, I can shoot a 3" group. But at 50 yards I'm having issues of getting on the paper, and I know it's my aiming. Without a front sight I'm lost. I know I need to get back to the range and just start shooting and figure it out, but I'd like to know if anyone has any hints that could help. My load is 60 gr FFg topped with Flax tow, a .662 RB and more Flax Tow over that. I know most would say I need to shoot a paper over the ball, but I'm using what I have. Thank you.

I am not trying to be a smart aleck, but you should have a brass front sight on top the front barrel band, don't you?

It sounds like your ball size is way too small for the barrel, for accuracy. Is the bore a true .690" or some other size? Even so, I would still try using that ball size with some cotton Upholstery Grade Ticking at .022" for a patch. That or use a double thickness of the standard Ticking.

Oh, a tip I picked up from Spence 10 on loading smoothbores is to use a card over the powder, then a lubed cushion wad, then the patched ball. This may also help you.

Gus

 

[Stumpkiller]

Yep. Pointed - like a shotgun.

Practice is the key. Start up close and work up the muscle memory and brain wiring so that (with both eyes open) you put the gun where it needs to be for the target you are focusing at. Pick a tiny spot.

Have a slingshot when you were a kid? No sights on them but with enough practice you can get pretty efficient.

 

[jbkrab]

I am not trying to be a smart aleck, but you should have a brass front sight on top the front barrel band, don't you?

It sounds like your ball size is way too small for the barrel, for accuracy. Is the bore a true .690" or some other size? Even so, I would still try using that ball size with some cotton Upholstery Grade Ticking at .022" for a patch. That or use a double thickness of the standard Ticking.

Oh, a tip I picked up from Spence 10 on loading smoothbores is to use a card over the powder, then a lubed cushion wad, then the patched ball. This may also help you.

Gus

Gus,

You're not sounding like a smart aleck, what you wrote makes a lot of sense. But the issue is with only one sight, the front blade, how are others pointing/aiming with consistency? My current load seems to be sufficient at 25 yards with repeatability. At 50 yards is where I'm having the issue. Now when I went to 50 yards I was getting a bit tired, so maybe when I go next week to try again, I might do better starting at 50 yds. The musket is supposed to be a .69 bore. I measure it at .68 at the muzzle. I have 0.018 patches but they with the ball seem to be too tight of a fit (compared to my other muzzle loaders). As I said, the Flax Tow at 25 yds was a 3" group and I really wasn't trying too hard other than to move the group into the center of the target (I was shooting center but 3" to the right.

 

[jbkrab]

Yep. Pointed - like a shotgun.

Practice is the key. Start up close and work up the muscle memory and brain wiring so that (with both eyes open) you put the gun where it needs to be for the target you are focusing at. Pick a tiny spot.

Have a slingshot when you were a kid? No sights on them but with enough practice you can get pretty efficient.

Thanks, I will definitely do this next week. Well unlike a ribbed shotgun and a bead, I guess I'll have to try the barrel stays in alignment and see what happens. This is what I love about black powder, every smoke pole shoots differently and requires a skill set that needs to be adopted per musket/rifle.

 

[Artificer]

Gus,

You're not sounding like a smart aleck, what you wrote makes a lot of sense. But the issue is with only one sight, the front blade, how are others pointing/aiming with consistency? starting at 50 yds. The musket is supposed to be a .69 bore. I measure it at .68 at the muzzle. I have 0.018 patches but they with the ball seem to be too tight of a fit (compared to my other muzzle loaders). As I said, the Flax Tow at 25 yds was a 3" group and I really wasn't trying too hard other than to move the group into the center of the target (I was shooting center but 3" to the right.

 

[Artificer]

OK, now I understand. I used to compete with my Brown Bess Carbine in the Northwest Trade Gun Aggregate at the Spring and Fall Nationals at Friendship and other places and that gun also only has a front sight (no rear sight).

Since your eyeball is the rear sight, then what you have to do is make sure your cheek is in the same place on the stock every time you fire (as much as is humanly possible). This is called ensuring your "spot weld" of your cheek on the stock is the same from shot to shot.

You can verify that by what you see of the barrel closer to your eyeball when you mount the gun and begin to aim. You will be able to see if the rear of the barrel and that portion of the stock is canted left or right, when you know to actually look for it. With enough practice, you will get your "spot weld" or cheek position on the stock in the same place every time.

Since I always had a fairly bad astigmatism, I always had to "crawl up the stock" and get my eyeball as close as possible to the rear sight, but that actually helped me get a consistent "spot weld."

Also, sometimes depending on person to person and the type of smoothbore, you may be able to use the top of the barrel tang as both a reference point to ensure you aren't canting the gun and to center the front sight.

Gus

 

[Col. Batguano]

Another cheap way to practice is with a Daisy Red Ryder. Take the sights off it, and get used to instinctive aiming. The bonus with them is that you can watch the BB all the way to the target.

And for God's sake, don't shoot your eye out.

 

[Rat]

I put a rear sight on my Brown Bess carbine, and a copper blade set into my front sight, or bayonet lug...much to the horror of some, but I used a style that at least "looks" period correct. And there is a Brown Bess in the NRA collection/museum, with a rear sight. So it's not exactly something that could not exist. !!! However, what has worked best for me, in a smoothbore, and my Bess, is to use a small-ball, thick patch combination. I use a .690" ball, (the Bess being a .75-76, or 11 gauge) work it between two rasps to get the "chewed ball" effect, and use a thick pillow ticking patch. (.023", something like that) Without the "chewing", I use a denim patch. It will shoot into 3-4" at fifty yards easy. I have also found that a smooth-bore likes a heavy charge, and I get best accuracy if I don't spare the powder. However, smooth bores can be shot quite well without sights, just something that takes a lot of practice. Good luck.

 

[Rat]

Sorry to double-post, but just wanted to mention again that I think your powder charge is a bit light, and you might want to try a 100 grain charge, in conjunction with patching and/or trying a "chewed" ball. Also, shooting with a paper cartridge (as Curator mentions) could help quite a bit, depending on the thickness of the paper, and the number of wraps, you can adjust the thickness of your paper-patch. I've had good luck with that. I use paper bag, either the big heavy grocery bags, but usually thinner lunch-bag. And of course paper cartridges really speeds up the loading process. No duh! In my Bess they are not as accurate as a patched chewed ball, but if I remember correctly, (haven't shot them for a while) I can still kill, or badly scare a paper plate at 50 yards. They don't have to be made authentic and complicated like originals, just wrap the paper around a dowel, glue, seal one end, drop in your ball, powder, fold the end over. Again, I would agree, I don't think it's you, I believe the musket is inaccurate beyond 25 yards with the load and method you are using now.

 

[tenngun]

I too go with a rear sight to get on target. My left eye is very near sighted 20-200, my right eye was normal 20-15 through my youth now 20-25. Because of that I’m very right eyed. So I can’t open both eyes to aim or I pull left. With one eye closed I tend to shoot right of the target. With a rear sight my shooting becomes easier.
The Springfield was made to shoot against an enemy line. People at times were called on to shoot carefully and marksmanship could be pressed, but in general the load was made to devastate a line not an individual.

 

[jbkrab]

Thanks everyone for your ideas. Went to the range today (shot over a 1/2 pound of FFg Powder) and this time I was hitting the target at 50 yards about 60% of the time, but not where I aimed . I was able to maintain a grouping of about 4", lower right on the target. This verifies that my load of 60 grs FFg wad of tow over powder and over the .662 ball seems to be working for me at both 25 and 50 yards. All I need to do now is keep practicing and work on the pointing aspect. I also switched from FFg to FFFFg in the pan and that alone made a big difference in speed of ignition with less chance of me moving. Ran out of FFFFg and had to go back to FFg in the pan for the last half dozen shots. I really like this musket, maybe one day I'll try it as a Fowler, but for now I can see that it really can be a great shooter at 50 yards. If I ever master this distance, I'll try 75 and 100 just for fun. Thanks again for all the hints. Regards, Ben

 

[Rat]

I have always wanted a 1795....badly....but if I had one my Bess would gather dust, and that wouldn't be good. Glad it's shooting for you, when you have really mastered it don't be afraid of trying some different loads/methods. Took me many years to really perfect shooting ball in my Bessie, although I use her mainly as a fowler for grouse and Turkey.

 

[jbkrab]

I have always wanted a 1795....badly....but if I had one my Bess would gather dust, and that wouldn't be good. Glad it's shooting for you, when you have really mastered it don't be afraid of trying some different loads/methods. Took me many years to really perfect shooting ball in my Bessie, although I use her mainly as a fowler for grouse and Turkey.

Great advice. Once I get my shooting down pact, I'll try experimenting with different load options.

 

[FlinterNick]

I recently purchased a repro 1795 Springfield. At 25 yards, I can shoot a 3" group. But at 50 yards I'm having issues of getting on the paper, and I know it's my aiming. Without a front sight I'm lost. I know I need to get back to the range and just start shooting and figure it out, but I'd like to know if anyone has any hints that could help. My load is 60 gr FFg topped with Flax tow, a .662 RB and more Flax Tow over that. I know most would say I need to shoot a paper over the ball, but I'm using what I have. Thank you.

Charleville muskets differ from other muskets in that they're designed to be shouldered and aimed. Some originals have been found with crude rear sights.

I use a 1763 Charleville; I patch it with a lightly greased coffee filter paper at .678, I'm about an inch to half an inch under at 75 yards with a steady hold.

 

[jbkrab]

Charleville muskets differ from other muskets in that they're designed to be shouldered and aimed. Some originals have been found with crude rear sights.

I use a 1763 Charleville; I patch it with a lightly greased coffee filter paper at .678, I'm about an inch to half an inch under at 75 yards with a steady hold.

Great idea on the coffee filter patch. I'm going to have to play with that! Thank you.

 

[FlinterNick]

Great idea on the coffee filter patch. I'm going to have to play with that! Thank you.

One other thing to add, the Charleville 1763 has a heavier and thicker barrel than the other Charleville and Springfield patterns (it also makes the musket about half a pound heavier) a denser smoothbore barrel tends to be a little more accurate then a larger bore lighter barrel or bore of equal gauge.

I've shot all types of muskets, Brown Bess, Charleville and Springfield. By far the most accurate one I've ever shot was a smaller gauge fusil. The barrel was 41 inches, 20 gauge full round and was light weight around 8 lbs. Brown Bess's are very uncomfortable to shoot because the heal and comb are higher, and the gun hold's a lot of wood making it not very balanced for aiming. The 1740 Brown Bess is the most comfortable to shoot, if you can carry it lol.


Springfields and Charlevilles are ok for hunting fowl but remember these are military guns specifically designed for killing other soldiers, the large gauge and heavier design will always take them very inn accurate. I like the Charlevilles because they can be broken down pretty quickly for cleaning. My 1763 is similar to the 1795 different in that its a little heavier.

 

[Rat]

I'm not sure if there ever was a Brown Bess carbine, historically, but the carbine I have is very comfortable to shoot. However, I think the pedersoli carbine, like I have, would be better with about three-four more inches of barrel, as it is very slightly butt-heavy when you carry it one handed. But, I find it very balanced for aiming. For some reason, I've never been bothered by recoil, but I've heard others complain about it with the carbine. My carbine likes loads on the heavy side also, for best accuracy, but unless I'm shooting with only a t-shirt on, the recoil, and killer-buttplate does not bother me. The heel and comb also seem to fit me well. I do know however, that when the comb does not fit one's face and/or physique, that's a painful proposition. !!!!