18 cal

[Eterry]

Im sure your right there Capt...just like Henry Deringer made more than a small pocket pistol im sure Hawkin made other types of rifles than plains rifles. But if Johnson indeed had a 30 caliber rifle its easy to see why he almost starved!!

Eterry

 

[Matt85]

Matt, I've sat in a deer blind and also wondered if the screen writers got their terms confused in the movie. If the Hawkin had been a 30 bore/gauge it would have been a 53 caliber rifle, which is something I'm sure would have been used going west. As to you stating a 30 caliber Hawkin would have not been uncommon, I have to disagree. The Hawkin was made and intended to go west and tackle large hairy beasties that bite, and a 30 caliber anything would throw a ball weighing in at 40 grains...about the weight of your garden variety 22 long rifle. Not what the Hawkin was intended for I'm sure. I've long wanted to read an accurate account of "Liver Eating Johnson" but never had. It'd be interesting if it talks of the caliber of weapons he used.

I've also heard somewhere...maybe on this site, that prior to the developement of cartridge arms most longarms were referred to by gauge or bore, not caliber.

Regards,
Eterry

i would strongly recomend you watch the movie again. not onley because its a good movie but because you also have it a little mixed up. (i just watched it again sunday)

if JJ's first gun was a 30 gauge then why did they say he wanted a 50 cal but settled for a 30 cal? why also was he so excited to find a 50 cal when his 30 gauge would have been bigger?

edit: im sorry for taking this post so far off topic.

-matt

 

[LaBonte]

The reason for the mistake made in JJ was as noted above - due to an incorrect understanding of the words and how they were applied in period:

The term caliber or calibre (French/Spanish spelling)was originally used as a synonym for gauge or bore size - all three originally were based on balls per pound for that diameter bore. One researcher (Diez) suggests the term caliber, whihc is of uncertain origin, may be derived from the Latin quá librá = of what weight. Applied to the bore of a gun it would be be determined by the weight (and consequent size) of the bullet i.e. gauges, bore, balls per pound.
Bore size by balls per pound or gauge was the more commonly used term by the Brits (and later Americans) but even they used the three terms interchangeably up until about the mid-1800's or so. But you have to read original pre-1850 or so sources to find the terms used thusly.
The use of the word caliber for the decimal equivalent of the bore size in inches/fractions of an inch i.e. .54 caliber instead of 32 gauge/bore/balls per pound began circa the 1850's (at least that's as early as I have found the term being used to describe the bore diameter in inches). One example is an advertisement for Colt Navy pistols from 1859 - it describes the bore in three different ways:
Balls per pound/gauge of round ball
Balls per pound/gauge of conicals (they are heavier than the balls)
The diameter of the bore in inches: in this case .375"
Based on period research, IMO it was the wider spread use of conicals that initiated the change in common meaning of caliber/calibre from the same as gauge/balls per pound to that of the diamter in inches.

So IMO what the author and writers did wrong was to make an assumption based on incorrect data. Somewhere in the period research done by the author he came across the 30 caliber designation and ASSUMED it meant the bore size in inches (as was common in the mid-20th Century when the book was written) rather than the correct designation of balls per pound.
Thus in both the author's fertile imagination (Crow Killer is decent historical fiction/folklore at best - it is a poorly researched biography) the term caliber meant diameter in inches and not gauge. Then later the script writer's just followed suit and made the same error - plus the whole "he wanted a 50 caliber instead of a 30 caliber" is a good sub-plot line that adds interest to the story no matter how grossly wrong it is.

Here's a pretty good site for those interested in Johnson and the real story as well as the books and the movie: http://johnlivereatingjohnston.com/

 

[Eterry]

The reason for the mistake made in JJ was as noted above - due to an incorrect understanding of the words and how they were applied in period:

The term caliber or calibre (French/Spanish spelling)was originally used as a synonym for gauge or bore size - all three originally were based on balls per pound for that diameter bore. One researcher (Diez) suggests the term caliber, whihc is of uncertain origin, may be derived from the Latin quá librá = of what weight. Applied to the bore of a gun it would be be determined by the weight (and consequent size) of the bullet i.e. gauges, bore, balls per pound.
Bore size by balls per pound or gauge was the more commonly used term by the Brits (and later Americans) but even they used the three terms interchangeably up until about the mid-1800's or so. But you have to read original pre-1850 or so sources to find the terms used thusly.
The use of the word caliber for the decimal equivalent of the bore size in inches/fractions of an inch i.e. .54 caliber instead of 32 gauge/bore/balls per pound began circa the 1850's (at least that's as early as I have found the term being used to describe the bore diameter in inches). One example is an advertisement for Colt Navy pistols from 1859 - it describes the bore in three different ways:
Balls per pound/gauge of round ball
Balls per pound/gauge of conicals (they are heavier than the balls)
The diameter of the bore in inches: in this case .375"
Based on period research, IMO it was the wider spread use of conicals that initiated the change in common meaning of caliber/calibre from the same as gauge/balls per pound to that of the diamter in inches.

So IMO what the author and writers did wrong was to make an assumption based on incorrect data. Somewhere in the period research done by the author he came across the 30 caliber designation and ASSUMED it meant the bore size in inches (as was common in the mid-20th Century when the book was written) rather than the correct designation of balls per pound.
Thus in both the author's fertile imagination (Crow Killer is decent historical fiction/folklore at best - it is a poorly researched biography) the term caliber meant diameter in inches and not gauge. Then later the script writer's just followed suit and made the same error - plus the whole "he wanted a 50 caliber instead of a 30 caliber" is a good sub-plot line that adds interest to the story no matter how grossly wrong it is.

Here's a pretty good site for those interested in Johnson and the real story as well as the books and the movie: http://johnlivereatingjohnston.com/[/quote]

What he said... ff

Eterry

 

[tenngun]

i wonder if the Hawkins ever made a 30 cal rifle,thats about 40 grains in a round ball, I dont know if that would put a deer on the table. I think the movie makers just got confused. years ago I saw photos of G Washingtons matched pistols in the photo heading they were called 32 cal,they looked to be bigger then 50 cal,maybe 54
(32 bore)

 

[Marc Adamchek]

I've got a Joseph Lang 18 gauge double rifle (1835). I absolutely love it.

Yes, your grandfather's 18 gauge shotgun is certainly plausible.

Very nice heirloom, you're lucky to have it.

Do you know the maker?

 

[JDR]

yes i know him well he is 73 years and a craftman he is from herman nebraska if you want i could get you a numder jerry

 

[billthefifth]

We have a couple "BB black powder mini cannons" at home. So they are something like .15 caliber! We've been loading them with just a few grains of Pyrodex and plugging the touch hole with fire cracker fuses. :grin:

 

[Carl Fowler III]

Seems simple enough...if the muzzle hole looks BB size it's an 18 caliber(doubt this) if it looks like you can stick your thumb down it....it's 18 gauge! Though you will want to gauge it with a caliper before buying balls for it! :thumbsup:

 

[flintlockmdj]

I shoot an 18 caliber smoothbore. I only use roundball in it. It's called a Red Ryder!

Me too and I'm 62 years old.