1848 Dragoon Questions

[oldwolf]

This question surely has been answered elsewhere, but I have not been able to find them.

I have been looking at the 1848 Dragoons (Whitneyville, No.1 ,2 and 3) and have some questions pertaining to them.

Since I prefer the square back design of the first three, I am not considering a No. 3 unless you advise me to.

The differences of the Whitneyville, the No. 1 and 2 seem very small, mainly limited to the shape of the cylinder notches. The No. 3 apparently has a different loading lever latch, like the one on the Army & Navy models. Is it significantly better than its predecessors?

Are there more differences that I should know about?

Which of these models is the more desirable in your opinion?

Why is the Uberti Whitneyville more expensive than the other models?

This will be my first Colt replica as I now own only a couple Ruger Old Army revolvers. It still amazes me that the Colt revolvers are strong enough to function without a top strap. Undoubtedly they do, as history shows us many times over.

Finally, what are the service lives of Pietta and Uberti revolvers? Being used to Ruger designs, which nearly never fail or wear out, I am hoping these replicas show a similar ability to survive me given the customary care one should give a muzzle loading firearm.

Dragoon Specs

Thanks!

 

[mykeal]

The differences of the Whitneyville, the No. 1 and 2 seem very small, mainly limited to the shape of the cylinder notches. The No. 3 apparently has a different loading lever latch, like the one on the Army & Navy models. Is it significantly better than its predecessors?

First of all, I own two Dragoons, a Uberti 2nd Model and a Colt Signature 3rd Model.

The differences between the different models in this series are indeed small and of mostly cosmetic consequence. I have had very, very few (like, none) problems with the loading lever latch on my 2nd Model, so I'd have to say the 3rd Model latch is not significantly better. Or worse.

Are there more differences that I should know about?

Nope.

Which of these models is the more desirable in your opinion?

The 3rd Dragoon. But, I like the oval trigger guard, so I'm of no help to you on that.

Why is the Uberti Whitneyville more expensive than the other models?

I have no idea. Maybe because they can?

This will be my first Colt replica as I now own only a couple Ruger Old Army revolvers. It still amazes me that the Colt revolvers are strong enough to function without a top strap. Undoubtedly they do, as history shows us many times over.

Don't think about the lack of a top strap. Think about the size of the cylinder arbor, or base pin. All the open top Colts had a massive base pin compared to any contemporaries. People rant (well, maybe just talk nicely) about the 'greater strength' of the Remingtons because of their top strap and don't mention the much smaller base pin.

Finally, what are the service lives of Pietta and Uberti revolvers? Being used to Ruger designs, which nearly never fail or wear out, I am hoping these replicas show a similar ability to survive me given the customary care one should give a muzzle loading firearm.

Service lives very much depend on how you use them. And that right there should tell you volumes about the difference between Ruger and Uberti/Pietta (of course, so should the price difference). I've had both Pietta and Uberti revolvers for over 30 years, and am still using them. I've had no (that is, zero) failures. I have, however, treated them carefully and had to replace minor (meaning small) action parts.

They are not Rugers. It's apples and oranges. Or, you get what you pay for.

 

[kaac1221]

oldwolf, mykeal pretty much answered your questions. As to the extra cost of the Whitneyville Dragoon it might be due to two things. One is the quantity of the production run.
I'm just guessing that Uberti doesn't make as many of that model as the other three Dragoons so costs may be a little higher. Like I said, I'm just guessing on that.

Another thing that might add to the cost (I have both a Whitneyville Dragoon and a 3rd Model Dragoon) is the way the grip, backstrap and trigger guard come together at the rear end of the frame. The rear of the frame on the Whitneyville has a radius cut into it whereas the later dragoons have a squared off frame. So the grip, triggerguard and the backstrap all have to have radii machined to match the cutout, and blend in with each other making for extra machining time If you will notice on the later guns everytning is cut square at this juncture. The Walker has the same type of grip. The Whitneyville being merely a cut-down Walker. I like that grip better than the later guns, just looks classier(!) and I like the feel of the grip.

In addition to the Whitneyville I have two Uberti Walkers and all three function flawlessly and are very accurate shooters. That heavy base pin that mykeal mentioned makes everything very rigid, to say the least.

Whichever Uberti you buy I'm sure you will be happy with it.

Just my (more than) two cents worth.

Dryball

 

[Zonie]

"Why is the Uberti Whitneyville more expensive than the other models?"
-------------

I am having difficulty in finding a picture of the Uberti Whitneyville but here is a bit of history about them.

The first model of the Whitneyville Hartford Dragoon or "Transition model" had a frame and grip which was the same as the Walker (although the frame was shortened to accommodate the shorter cylinder).

The second model of the Whitneyville Hartford Dragoon had the squareback style grip and frame joint of the later First, Second and Third Model Dragoons.

To understand what this means, the Walker and the First model Whitneyville grip wood just behind the trigger guard is cut on a angle which causes the wood to move forward as it moves upward and the wood slightly overlaps the frame in this area.
The Second Model Whitneyville's grip meets the rear of the frame in a vertical joint like all of the later Colts did.

As a side note, the Whitneyville was Colts first attempt to please a number of people in the Military who's chief objection to the Walker was its size and weight. This objection was the cause of all three Dragoons plus the Whitneyville's creation.

If the Uberti Whitneyville has the first models grip style that might explain why the gun costs a little more. If it is machined like the second model then mykeal must be right. Because they can.

 

[Wes/Tex]

Most of your questions have been answered above. I'd only add the fact that Uberti made all the parts for the Colt guns. The parts were fitted and finished by Colt so they could put their name on them. Unless the Colt name means a lot to you, shoot the Uberti guns and suck in some gun smoke!

 

[oldwolf]

Thank you all for the advice and information.

Is the Whitneyville the only version of the Dragoons with a case hardened frame? If so, that may be one further reason for the increased price.

One thing I have found concerning my Rugers is that they are most accurate with reduced loads when using balls. But, my question is if this is also true of the Dragoons? If so, why is this? I would have thought most pistoleros would desire a large revolver that delivered its payload accurately at higher velocities rather than lower. I think it could have been resolved with a different twist rate of the rifling.

One question I had that I don’t recollect seeing addressed is the comparison of Uberti to Pietta. My research is all anecdotal, but it appears Uberti is the clear choice for better quality. The fact offered up by Wes/Tex, that Colt used Uberti parts for their builds, seems to reinforce this notion.

Regards,
OldWolf

 

[mykeal]

Is the Whitneyville the only version of the Dragoons with a case hardened frame? If so, that may be one further reason for the increased price.

Nope. Here are my Dragoons:

One thing I have found concerning my Rugers is that they are most accurate with reduced loads when using balls. But, my question is if this is also true of the Dragoons? If so, why is this? I would have thought most pistoleros would desire a large revolver that delivered its payload accurately at higher velocities rather than lower. I think it could have been resolved with a different twist rate of the rifling.

None of my bp revolvers shoots best (most accurately) with a max or full load. Every one is better in terms of accuracy with a load reduced to about 75-80% of max load. So, I'd have to say that in my experience that's pretty much a characteristic of bp revolvers.

Why? Maybe it has to do with the fact that they don't burn all the powder - a good percentage gets blown out the barrel unburned. There is a point of diminishing returns, where a given percentage increase in powder weight does not return a comparable increase in muzzle velocity; in fact, the more powder loaded the larger the standard deviation in measured velocities. Loading more powder does not return the increase in velocity one might expect, and the variability in muzzle velocity increases. That would seem to lead to loss of accuracy, at least when measured as group size.

One question I had that I don’t recollect seeing addressed is the comparison of Uberti to Pietta. My research is all anecdotal, but it appears Uberti is the clear choice for better quality. The fact offered up by Wes/Tex, that Colt used Uberti parts for their builds, seems to reinforce this notion.

At one time Uberti was a clear choice over Pietta as regards quality. That is no longer the case, in my opinion. Pietta has significantly improved their quality in the recent past. I won't say they are Uberti's equal yet, and Uberti can still put out a stinker now and then, too. But I think the odds that you will get a bad one from Pietta are just about the same as those that you will get a bad one from Uberti.

 

[oldwolf]

Thanks for the pictures and information mkkeal.

Where do you think the best location is to purchase? I located[url] arms2armor.com[/url], which has good prices it seems, but how is their service in case I have troubles?

And what is a Cimmaron Uberti?
[url] http://arms2armor.com/store/ssuberti-ss3.html[/url]
[url] http://www.cimarron-firearms.com[/url]/

 

[mykeal]

I do not have any personal experience with Arms to Armor, but they have a good reputation.

Cimarron Firearms Co. imports and sells at retail Uberti and Pietta products. The are said to "cherry pick" the Ubertis to be sure they sell only the highest quality guns, so a Cimarron Uberti is supposed to be a 'premium quality' Uberti. Again, I've never bought one, but everyone I've heard of that has one has been very pleased with the quality of the gun.

Prices are volatile due to the weakness of the US dollar, so prices on the web sites may not be accurate; you really need to talk to a human being at each place to get the real price. Having said that, Here's my matrix of sources for a Uberti 3rd Model Dragoon:

Price Brand Retailer
$275 Uberti S&S
$279 Uberti Texas Jack
$309 Uberti Starr
$312 Uberti Arms2Armor
$314 ? Buffalo Arms
$320 Uberti Dixie Gun Works
$320 Uberti Dixie Gun Works
$329 Cimarron Arms2Armor
$331 Uberti Midway USA
$339 Cimarron Arms2Armor
$340 ? Taylor's
$340 Uberti Possible Shop
$355 Uberti Thunder Ridge
$357 Cimarron Cimarron
$357 Cimarron Texas Jack
$362 ? Buffalo Arms

 

[kaac1221]

Old Wolf,

I've dealt with arms2armor several times (Uberti's)and have no complaints. Easy to talk to and very helpful and congenial in my opinion.

As far as service, I can't answer that because I've never had any problems with the guns I bought from him.

Hope this helps a little....

Dryball

 

[oldwolf]

Wow-Quite a price spread. Where is S&S and do they have a website?
Regards,
Oldwolf

 

[oldwolf]

Thanks Dryball, it is useful to me to have opinions from those that have first hand experience from a vendor I might purchase from.

Do you have a Dragoon as well?

 

[mykeal]

S&S Firearms is in Glendale, New York - that's out on Long Island, between Queens and Brooklyn:[url] http://www.ssfirearms.com/download catalog.htm[/url]

I bought a Uberti Walker from them a couple of months ago. It took two weeks to ship and when it arrived the box had a Taylor's sticker on it. They simply drop shipped it to me from Taylor's stock.
Also, the price was higher than the catalog by $8, due to dollar/lira fluctuations. However, it was still cheaper than any other one I could find when real prices and shipping were combined.

Use the list as a guide, but you need to talk to a human at each place to get the real prices.

 

[kaac1221]

Old wolf,

I do have a Dragoon; it's an Uberti Whitneyville and it is one nice gun. Has the Walker type grip, which I like. I also bought a 58 Remington and a 61 Colt Navy from arms2armor quite a while ago. No problems with the sale and didn't have to wait too long to get them. He does require an adult signature upon delivery by UPS.

Incidently, arms2armor gets their guns from Taylors as well as Cimmaron. I think Taylors is one of the importers. At least that's what Carl at arms2armor told me if I remember correctly.

Hope this additional info helps.

Dryball

 

[oldwolf]

I just noticed that the wedge on the Colt is inserted from left side to right side as looking down the barrel, muzzle forward. What was a surprise was how far the wedge sticks out to the left when the wedge is properly inserted. I can only surmise that this was to accommodate for wear of the wedge and wedge slot. Am I correct? Just how much would you expect the wedge and slot to wear normally? Perhaps that design accommodation was necessary with the original softer metal that Samuel used back in 1850 but may not necessarily be needed with modern metallurgy.

And, relating to the question I had way up the thread, I have a reply from Rich from Cimarron, quoted below.

Those Prices are correct for the generic Uberti's we sell at Texas Jack's, with the exception of the 2nd Model which we don't sell on the web, we do sell the 3rd Model for $279.00.

The prices on the Cimarron models are:
1st Model Dragoon, Std Finish: $349.70
2nd Model Dragoon, Std Finish: 357.50
Whitneyville Dragoon, Std Finish: $369.20

At Cimarron we pay Uberti extra for better finish, fit and authenticity, anw we have the proof marks hidden so they will not take away from the authentic appearance of the gun. Yes it is true that at Cimarron we hand check every gun we ship for fit finish and workability!

Thanks, Rich Karas
[email protected]

It might be worth it to pay the extra money to buy a Cimarron. What do you think?

 

[Dave Rosenthal]

Yes, by all means it is! Now if only more people woud realize this the world (and this forum) would be a better place. Time after time I read posts from mail-order maniacs who would rather puke than pay a dime more than the bottom line, and then complain about fit, finish, or some other this or that! Some of these folks aren't happy unless they have something to complain about.

Some folks like to pay next to nothing for stuff, and then tinker with it until they either like it or break it altogether! Then the cycle repeats itself.

My time is very precious to me...when I buy something I expect to shoot it right out of the box. For this I am ever so willing to pay a little more to know that it is fully functional and doesn't need tinkering done to it!

Dave

 

[kaac1221]

Old Wolf,

I just checked over my two latest purchases.

A Whitneyville Dragoon by Uberti/Cimmaron. I can't find my paperwork right now but I think the price was around $320 at the time.

A Walker by Uberti from Dixie Gun Works. On sale for $295.00 just recently.

I can see proof and date marks on both guns although the ones on the Dragoon are light.

The Cimmaron Dragoon does have a little better finish and fit. And it's a very accurate shooter.

Haven't shot the Walker yet.

Just my opinion based on the 8 Uberti's I own, but I don't think you can go wrong if you buy an Uberti, whether it's a "generic" gun or a Cimmaron. I've had good luck with all of them.

I have noticed that the wedge on my Walker does stick out but can't venture a guess as to why.

Hope I'm not confusing the issue.........

Dryball

 

[oldwolf]

Texas Jack's has the Cimarron 1st model on sale for $326. That sounds pretty good to me. :grin:
[url] http://www.texasjacks.com/SuperSales/GunSale/GunSale-Percussion.htm[/url]