1850? Scott and son shotgun

[southlandmechser]

I've tried before on this forum, no luck. Maybe this time someone will be able to help.
I purchased this Scott and Son several years ago, it's a great shooter. I have not been able to determine the exact year of manufacture or the history of this weapon. It seems to be an early production before Scott and sons became known.
Any info out there? Estimated value?

 

[Sparkitoff]

That is not the W.& C. Scott that is well known. William Scott was a late apprentice - most apprenticeships began at age 14, but he began at age 21. He finished his apprenticeship in 1834 and became a "gun finisher" for other companies. In 1838 his brother Charles joined him in the business and formed W. & C. Scott. There was never a "Scott and Son's" related to this maker. In 1858 the business became W. & C. Scott and sons. With this information in mind, we are looking for a different "Scott". Interestingly, in 1871 W. & C. Scott and Sons used a "Tower with a Flag" stamp on their guns. Your barrels seem to have a tower stamp of sorts, but the time period and name on the locks does not match the authentic utilization of that.

Unless the photo is poor, the London Fine Twist appears stamped, and is not the right font, nor consistency for a "best quality" gun.

The Proof mark with B-P-C is from Birmingham Proof House and was 1868-1925. The crown with BP is from 1856 and is the Birmingham Provincial Proof for barrels.

In 1870, 11 gauge was tapering off and was actually made in breach-loaders with cartridges.

The Book of Provincial Gunmakers up to 1850 does not list a "Scott".

The Provincial proof marks make sense because they were for guns by a person or company that was not enrolled in the London Gunmakers Company.

A search of Indemnities and Applications to the "Company" shows who had an apprenticeship and, upon completion, who applied for freedom in the "Company" to be a registered gunmaker. I can only find William Scott's son's with either or both. There is a J. Scott that applied for freedom in 1849, but he has no sons or apprentices and was not independently in business for long.

The HL could be Herbert Charles Lambert, who was an exporter of silver and sporting goods, but he was more prominent in late 1800's and even early 1900's. There was HL prefix used by Halloway and Co. London on barrels they made for trade guns, but not their own.

Your gun has no "vents", which are commonly platinum. It also features cleft hammers. These were common on trade or guild guns. Most of the registered Makers had some uniqueness to their hammers, whether in shape, engraving or finishing.

There were a lot of English and Continental guns being imported at the conclusion of the civil war, as the American makers were tapped with supplying arms and military items.

Based on all of the above, I believe you actually have a later trade gun for export, made between 1865-1870. I hope this is helpful.

 

[southlandmechser]

That is not the W.& C. Scott that is well known. William Scott was a late apprentice - most apprenticeships began at age 14, but he began at age 21. He finished his apprenticeship in 1834 and became a "gun finisher" for other companies. In 1838 his brother Charles joined him in the business and formed W. & C. Scott. There was never a "Scott and Son's" related to this maker. In 1858 the business became W. & C. Scott and sons. With this information in mind, we are looking for a different "Scott". Interestingly, in 1871 W. & C. Scott and Sons used a "Tower with a Flag" stamp on their guns. Your barrels seem to have a tower stamp of sorts, but the time period and name on the locks does not match the authentic utilization of that.

Unless the photo is poor, the London Fine Twist appears stamped, and is not the right font, nor consistency for a "best quality" gun.

The Proof mark with B-P-C is from Birmingham Proof House and was 1868-1925. The crown with BP is from 1856 and is the Birmingham Provincial Proof for barrels.

In 1870, 11 gauge was tapering off and was actually made in breach-loaders with cartridges.

The Book of Provincial Gunmakers up to 1850 does not list a "Scott".

The Provincial proof marks make sense because they were for guns by a person or company that was not enrolled in the London Gunmakers Company.

A search of Indemnities and Applications to the "Company" shows who had an apprenticeship and, upon completion, who applied for freedom in the "Company" to be a registered gunmaker. I can only find William Scott's son's with either or both. There is a J. Scott that applied for freedom in 1849, but he has no sons or apprentices and was not independently in business for long.

The HL could be Herbert Charles Lambert, who was an exporter of silver and sporting goods, but he was more prominent in late 1800's and even early 1900's. There was HL prefix used by Halloway and Co. London on barrels they made for trade guns, but not their own.

Your gun has no "vents", which are commonly platinum. It also features cleft hammers. These were common on trade or guild guns. Most of the registered Makers had some uniqueness to their hammers, whether in shape, engraving or finishing.

There were a lot of English and Continental guns being imported at the conclusion of the civil war, as the American makers were tapped with supplying arms and military items.

Based on all of the above, I believe you actually have a later trade gun for export, made between 1865-1870. I hope this is helpful.

 

[52Bore]

I’ll add: made for export for Scott & Son. They were probably a retailer, not the maker.

 

[southlandmechser]

THANK YOU. That's certainly a good amount of information, best anyone has given me.
One barrel is a taper bore, the other is square. I only use shot or buck and ball in the tapered barrel. I have used a patch and ball in the square bore. So, any idea what the 17 MARK means.

 

[southlandmechser]

I’ll add: made for export for Scott & Son. They were probably a retailer, not the maker.

So, Scott and Son may be the American retailer who imported it? Interesting.

 

[Sparkitoff]

So, any idea what the 17 MARK means.

I have seen 17 on a lot of Belgium barrels (another weird inconsistency with yours). It is the degree of choke. In other words, if your 12 gauge is 18.2mm's, the choke is 18.03mm. Rough equivalent would be .72 bore, .71 choke - .10 of choke or Quarter choke, ie: Improved Cylinder. In Birmingham, that mark would have been used primarily for a choke alteration, which would require re-proof and that may account for the multiple proof marks..... But what is the 17 Mark on the top of barrels?

There are some indicators that these are indeed Belgium sourced barrels that received a B-Ham proof. The HL is probably Henri Lochet de Chaudfontaine, who made a lot of barrels for the trade from 1856-1871 and the 17 would correspond to that. Also, the two different barrels, tapered and square is not an English thing at all. It is much more common on Austrian, German and Belgium guns.

Most likely, the gun was intentionally made to mislead an American buyer to associate it with W.&C. Scott and Sons, including the addition of a similar Tower mark that was expected on their guns. The barrel or barreled action could have been finished, or stocked in B-Ham and required the proof. Either way, some "continental" guns purposely had their trade guns go through England. The purchaser in USA, and sometimes other countries and continents had a gun "imported from England" - TRUE and the information on it would lead them to believe it was English made.

It is still a nice gun! As far as a value, I can apply that to a genuine English gun but couldn't imagine what it would be for this gun. There's a lot of "Hardware Store", "Retailer" and "Importer" guns with various names that were made to seem "English". Generally, they are worth what a decent used BP shotgun could command in today's market and is almost entirely based on condition, as prominence and no application. I just checked Gunbroker and Guns International (US based) and Guntrader.UK (England based). There are similar guns with the same kind of background are anywhere from $350 buy it now - to $750 ish. Condition makes a big difference. Yours appears very nice....

 

[52Bore]

So, Scott and Son may be the American retailer who imported it? Interesting.

Not necessary an American retailer…
The Scott&Son looks somewhat generic and there’s no address on the bbls / makes me think a retailer.
Enjoy the piece.

 

[southlandmechser]

I have seen 17 on a lot of Belgium barrels (another weird inconsistency with yours). It is the degree of choke. In other words, if your 12 gauge is 18.2mm's, the choke is 18.03mm. Rough equivalent would be .72 bore, .71 choke - .10 of choke or Quarter choke, ie: Improved Cylinder. In Birmingham, that mark would have been used primarily for a choke alteration, which would require re-proof and that may account for the multiple proof marks..... But what is the 17 Mark on the top of barrels?

OK, now we're cooking with gas! It is an 11 gauge, but one barrel was modified and has a choke (tapper). The other barrel is a square bore....no taper.

 

[southlandmechser]

Not necessary an American retailer…
The Scott&Son looks somewhat generic and there’s no address on the bbls / makes me think a retailer.
Enjoy the piece.

Well, it's old...no serial number and it got to the U.S. somehow and sometime. I'd like to assume Civil War era lots of guns imported especially for the confederacy. It is fun to shoot.

 

[flintsteel]

I’m inclined to think the gun is entirely of later Belgium manufacture and as was so common at one time had fraudulent proof stamps on it. Certainly the castle stamps are crude. The patch box is out of place on an English gun but very common on a continental trade gun. Considering the time frame, if one barrel is choked it was an aftermarket feature done way after the gun was made.

 

[southlandmechser]

I’m inclined to think the gun is entirely of later Belgium manufacture and as was so common at one time had fraudulent proof stamps on it. Certainly the castle stamps are crude. The patch box is out of place on an English gun but very common on a continental trade gun. Considering the time frame, if one barrel is choked it was an aftermarket feature done way after the gun was made.

It's a cap box at best, no patches will fit and as it's a shotgun; not likely for patches. Maybe it is a continental trade gun from Belgium, but that's not probable, why counterfeit proof marks? Plus, the hardware is plated with German silver and engraved, wouldn't think that common. Being percussion that places it in the mid 19th century (1830-1870). If this was in fact a common gun, it has certainly stumped MANY gunsmiths and weapon experts over the YEARS I've been trying to identify it. Makes it something worth having ...lol... and fun to shoot.